Knuckle Cracker

Particle Fleet => Pre-release chatter => Topic started by: Sorrontis on September 15, 2016, 12:25:06 AM

Title: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 15, 2016, 12:25:06 AM
I'm going to start all this by saying the following:

Virgil and the KC crew... Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for making this! I had high expectations, and oh boy, did you not disappoint. CW3 was in my top 5 favorite games of all time, and this is definitely a contender for top 3. So, again, thank you, you guys are awesome!


Now, to the meat.

One thing I've notice from the KC games is that the learning curve is on point. This doesn't stray from your formula. So +1.

The controls are intuitive for any CW3 player. It took me less than a minute to get into the groove. So another +1.

Maybe it's because I jumped straight into the missions (didn't look at map or ship building), but I couldn't figure which ship required the least/most energy to build, except by eye-balling it. Same thing with weapon energy usage.

The game doesn't run on my work computer which is an old XP rig... -1 ... j/k.. really, j/k. I'd get fired if it'd worked.

After playing the first 8 maps. Oh oh oh oh... I've got soooo many ideas for new maps. You've got my imagination peaked. I'll be draining days and days into this game for sure.

As for which unit is best for what? Umm.. I use a brute force method on all my maps. Maybe I'll come back to other maps and play "smart," but I doubt I'll beat my times.

So, I'll be posting all my thoughts here from now on. People can listen to me, or not. What's the next post? Probably a look at ship building.

Edit!
I present.... dum dum dam... The Needle. The weapon of choice for stuffing a lathe inside of nest!
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/Jg0VXpt.png) (http://imgur.com/Jg0VXpt)
[close]
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: SuperTerminator on September 15, 2016, 12:33:40 AM
Hear hear! If I could I'd buy virgil a round of drinks, but alas :(.

I recommend you try to "kite" clusters of particles and use both lathes to snipe units, maybe with an extra support ship or two (plus tanker!) to prolong their lifespan. Note: Do not try this with massive groups of particles unless you wanna waste energy or are entirely freaking awesome.


P.S.
Spoiler
*piqued bro ;)
[close]

Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 15, 2016, 12:38:26 AM
Nah man, it's peaked. I've reached enlightenment because of PF. (Thanks for correcting me)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 15, 2016, 01:10:47 AM
The only issue I have had (in about two hours play, so give it time) is that I automatically reach for Shift for multi-select, and Ctrl for waypoints. Else, all is well. (Camera jump-to-ship helps, I hope it can be used to select without jumping, or jump while selected, for long movements into a confined space.) I'd like to see a modifier key to allow zoom-with-selected-ship (Ctrl?), but that's just preference.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: jaworeq on September 15, 2016, 01:40:34 AM
Quote from: GoodMorning on September 15, 2016, 01:10:47 AM
The only issue I have had (in about two hours play, so give it time) is that I automatically reach for Shift for multi-select, and Ctrl for waypoints. Else, all is well. (Camera jump-to-ship helps, I hope it can be used to select without jumping, or jump while selected, for long movements into a confined space.) I'd like to see a modifier key to allow zoom-with-selected-ship (Ctrl?), but that's just preference.

You can swap keybindings for shift/ctrl in configuration. When you have selected a ship, you can still zoom with keyboard keys (I think Q/E default).
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 15, 2016, 04:16:05 AM
I've learned to live with it, and will only confuse myself again with reminding. E is the key for slide-move, although that might make it good choice for the zoom modifier, as slide-moving precludes the idea that the wheel movement is attempting ship rotation.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 01:31:32 AM
On the second day of Particles, my turtle gave to me,
2 Ideas for Ship Editor,
and 1 Idea for Map Editorrrrrrr!


Alright, Ship editor is pretty cool. Although, I looked for a grid button, I don't have a grid button :(
Second, I would love to be able to rotate modules like the command center, the engines and the fighter base.


As for the map editor, I was trying my new ships out, but I can't find a way to just place a ship. I have to build it. And when it comes to Titans, that takes a long time. Also, for my first map, I'd like to have a partial fleet for the players to start with and lose very quickly. You know I'm evil.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 16, 2016, 03:55:09 AM
Grid: Seconded.

Rotation: Likely painful, but possibly worth it.

Building: Hold B and place. (Or possibly Shift-B).
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 08:41:31 AM
Quote from: GoodMorning on September 16, 2016, 03:55:09 AM
Building: Hold B and place. (Or possibly Shift-B).

Thanks!
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 16, 2016, 09:58:47 AM
On the topic of inane ramblings...

The PF review has brought home to me two three things.

1) How much busier this forum must be in the aftermath of a game release. I haven't been here long enough to see more than the trickle of maps and their discussion, which has seemed constant, often with update intervals in days. Now it is unusual to see more than a half-hour elapse without some preview section being discussed.

2) The fact that everyone else here has a complete existence, of which only shadows can be seen from where I sit. Specifically, seeing the credit to planetfall which cited a full name caused this. Beforehand, I effectively interacted with text-based shadows of you, with the occasional deeper glimpse provided by mapmaking. That is still true, but I am now conscious of it, and of the effect that the shadows of other people's realities interacting with our own can have. I also consider the forum names in a different light.

3) How little I apply self-limitation. While I know (and have checked) that I can drop all thoughts of electronic communication for at least a reasonable period, I also have noticed that I do not seem to actually do this.

Yes... definitely ramblings. Back to something interesting, if not yet productive. No, a better plan: sleep, then finish Inception tomorrow. Then the exchange comes out to play...
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 12:44:43 PM
I'll be unveiling my sub-Titan class ship "Shelley" and my Titan class ship "Embargo" tonight! They'll be part of my first map to be released hopefully this weekend!
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 07:08:30 PM
I am proud to unveil the Embargo Titan Class Vessel.

A demonstration of its power!

Combat Simulation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTzvqSKd07o)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 07:20:53 PM
I am proud to unveil the Shelley Sub-Titan Class Vessel.

A demonstration of its power! And it's energy consumption.

Combat Simulation (https://youtu.be/4JT7d_IqR7c)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Cavemaniac on September 16, 2016, 09:17:13 PM

Woah!

The Embargo rocks my world!

I particularally liked the 'box in the emitter' function!!
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 10:47:03 PM
Quote from: Cavemaniac on September 16, 2016, 09:17:13 PM

Woah!

The Embargo rocks my world!

I particularally liked the 'box in the emitter' function!!

Thanks! I particularly proud of it.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 16, 2016, 10:56:26 PM
Agreed.

I have built the "Juggernaut", which worked. Then the power ran out, and the request rate wasn't enough. Thor-like, really.

The "Brick" was somewhat expensive, but useful in situations where the Lathe wasn't quite tough or fast enough. By the "Brick III", it was shielded, and came equipped with the mobile power necessary to run three lathes while shielded.

The "Powerhouse" is one of the more useful unarmed ships, followed by the "Micro" (or "Missile", to use the alternate name). The "Powerhouse II" has "Micro" sockets, clears/fixes plasma, and takes 10min to build.

The "MicroLathe" is small enough to fit in the sockets of the "Powerhouse II", and is cheap enough to replace regularly from that ship's copious storage.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Karsten75 on September 16, 2016, 11:08:53 PM
Just a note. Regardless of the capacity of a tanker, it can only resupply other ships at a maximum rate of 30 packets/second. One supply ship cannot sustain an entire fleet during sustained battles.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: planetfall on September 16, 2016, 11:29:52 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on September 16, 2016, 11:08:53 PM
Just a note. Regardless of the capacity of a tanker, it can only resupply other ships at a maximum rate of 30 packets/second. One supply ship cannot sustain an entire fleet during sustained battles.

[citation needed]

A tanker seems to be able to dispatch an unlimited number of packets/sec, but it can only refill from an energy mine at 30/sec - so yes when it is overexerted, that is the limit. However, if you have a tanker outside mine range being fed by one inside mine range, it can still use its guppies while receiving packets from the other tanker, allowing it to deliver more than 30 packets/sec.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: jaworeq on September 17, 2016, 01:00:32 AM
Quote from: Sorrontis on September 16, 2016, 07:08:30 PM
I am proud to unveil the Embargo Titan Class Vessel.

A demonstration of its power!

Combat Simulation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTzvqSKd07o)
That's how I roll in nearly every map, just have to use other ships to do the embargo part ;)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 17, 2016, 02:10:39 AM
My tanker-oid build ("Powerhouse") can supply energy to other ships while stunned, due to the number of Reactors present. I don't know if this is a feature of Reactors, or a bug in Stunners?

The "Powerhouse" cannot resupply anything which is within mine range either. This becomes an issue on a map I am building. The solution will be to use the standard energy supply for your base only, and for the fleet to be supplied by power ships. However, sometimes I have loaded energy tanks (and a port module) in range of a ship which is building, and because there is a Mine in range, it will not tap the tanks. Delete the mine, and the other ship is drained, resulting in faster builds.

Also, there must be a cap on port eps. I have had multiple loaded tanker-oid ships trying to supply my "Juggernaut" build, but it couldn't drain them fast enough.

Finally, the "Berthoid". Almost forty minutes to build, double layer of armour, eight MK7s, seven engines, two tanks, and 39 Reactors. Remaining space filled with lasers and particle beams. It still can't supply itself, but a nearby "Powerhouse" makes up the difference.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: knucracker on September 17, 2016, 09:45:31 AM
Tankers won't supply anything in range of a mine, unless it is really starved.  That really only happens after the bridge is built, since bridge construction takes place at a regulated rate.
Tankers (ports) also have a limit of 30 packets per second.  If you need more, you have to get creative with additional tankers and possibly fleet arrangement.

The reason tankers don't supply ships in mine range is because it creates a situation where you are building a tanker and it won't fill up because it is trying to supply other ships nearby that you are building.  So it is 'reluctant' to supply ships in the range of a mine with energy.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Karsten75 on September 17, 2016, 11:28:40 AM
Quote from: planetfall on September 16, 2016, 11:29:52 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on September 16, 2016, 11:08:53 PM
Just a note. Regardless of the capacity of a tanker, it can only resupply other ships at a maximum rate of 30 packets/second. One supply ship cannot sustain an entire fleet during sustained battles.

[citation needed]

A tanker seems to be able to dispatch an unlimited number of packets/sec, but it can only refill from an energy mine at 30/sec - so yes when it is overexerted, that is the limit. However, if you have a tanker outside mine range being fed by one inside mine range, it can still use its guppies while receiving packets from the other tanker, allowing it to deliver more than 30 packets/sec.

Quote from: virgilw on September 17, 2016, 09:45:31 AM
Tankers won't supply anything in range of a mine, unless it is really starved.  That really only happens after the bridge is built, since bridge construction takes place at a regulated rate.
Tankers (ports) also have a limit of 30 packets per second.  If you need more, you have to get creative with additional tankers and possibly fleet arrangement.

The reason tankers don't supply ships in mine range is because it creates a situation where you are building a tanker and it won't fill up because it is trying to supply other ships nearby that you are building.  So it is 'reluctant' to supply ships in the range of a mine with energy.


That good enough for you? :)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: planetfall on September 17, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Quote from: Karsten75 on September 17, 2016, 11:28:40 AM
Quote from: planetfall on September 16, 2016, 11:29:52 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on September 16, 2016, 11:08:53 PM
snip
snip

Quote from: virgilw on September 17, 2016, 09:45:31 AM
snip

That good enough for you? :)

Just so we're all on the same page... we're talking 30 packets per second per destination ship, not 30 packets per second total per port, right? The screenshot I posted seems to confirm the former. If that's not the intended behavior, consider this a bug report. :)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Karsten75 on September 17, 2016, 11:44:53 AM
Should be the port can supply 30 packets. Never tried a ship w multiple ports.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 17, 2016, 12:03:36 PM
What just happened to my thread? It was supposed to be all about me  ;D ;D :P (j/k)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Karsten75 on September 17, 2016, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: Sorrontis on September 17, 2016, 12:03:36 PM
What just happened to my thread? It was supposed to be all about me  ;D ;D :P (j/k)

Who are you again? :P
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: knucracker on September 17, 2016, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: planetfall on September 17, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Just so we're all on the same page... we're talking 30 packets per second per destination ship, not 30 packets per second total per port, right? The screenshot I posted seems to confirm the former. If that's not the intended behavior, consider this a bug report. :)

Yeah, I think that is the limit actually.  I have CW1,2,3, and PF packet scheduling all in my head and they are all the same and different in subtle ways.  For PF each command module is allowed to request up to 1 packet per frame.  They do that so the requests can all be sorted based on a whole slew of criteria.  That's where the 30 pps limit comes from.

I could have gone back for another sweep across "packets requesters", but decided the performance hit from that wouldn't be worth encouraging even larger ships.  So I left the natural constraint which encourages tighter ships.  In terms of lore, we might say that a single ship can only process energy so fast, hence the limitation and the resulting problem some large ships can have.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 17, 2016, 04:21:39 PM
The long awaited Sorrontis map!

This is it. No PRPL (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=21375.0)


Also, holy jumpers, the music gives me a feel of Battlestar Galactica. Which is inspiring my next map.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 17, 2016, 07:33:27 PM
Thanks for clarifying. So, one port can supply all the power you need, provided that there is power to send. If you need more than 30eps, your build will require Reactors.

For mine-range, could the ships request power first from the mine(s), and then from ships? I have found myself actively deleting an overtaxed mine, so that the ships building off it could tap the nearby tanker. The build rate went up sharply. I doubt that this is the intended behaviour.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Ovalcircle on September 17, 2016, 08:32:05 PM
I was playing an exchange map and the blue ships and a doppel decided to travel to the next exchange map.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 17, 2016, 11:50:36 PM
The second line-up of ships. Notice they all have their own power cores? That's because the next map you have no friends.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Xalos on September 18, 2016, 01:08:04 AM
I also notice none of them have any ports - I take it if you lose any of them, they're gone for good? :P
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 18, 2016, 09:22:39 AM
While I think of it, what opinions are there on rock burning layer-by-layer, as one-way Terp-analogs? That way islands might be leveled for Omnis, but metallicising one or more heights will allow mapmakers to make anti-Omni terrain if they so wish.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: jaworeq on September 18, 2016, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: GoodMorning on September 18, 2016, 09:22:39 AM
While I think of it, what opinions are there on rock burning layer-by-layer, as one-way Terp-analogs? That way islands might be leveled for Omnis, but metallicising one or more heights will allow mapmakers to make anti-Omni terrain if they so wish.
Yeah, would be nice if land was flat and omni could fit there, instead of fiddling. Especially, if one does like me and fly them in groups. I send 5 to destination, then I still have to fix position of 2-3 of them.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 12:07:50 PM
Quote from: Xalos on September 18, 2016, 01:08:04 AM
I also notice none of them have any ports - I take it if you lose any of them, they're gone for good? :P

Correct. If only I had a list of PRPL commands, I make is so that if you lose the HQ ship, you lose the map.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: planetfall on September 18, 2016, 12:10:18 PM
Quote from: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 12:07:50 PM
Quote from: Xalos on September 18, 2016, 01:08:04 AM
I also notice none of them have any ports - I take it if you lose any of them, they're gone for good? :P

Correct. If only I had a list of PRPL commands, I make is so that if you lose the HQ ship, you lose the map.


IsHQPresent if
    1 ->wasPresent
else
    <-wasPresent if
        FailMission
    endif
endif
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 01:29:19 PM
Thank you Planetfall, you're a god.

Where did you get the PRPL docs? When I go to the wiki, it's empty.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: knucracker on September 18, 2016, 04:42:20 PM
I'll get the docs out just as soon as I'm past the release.  I have a tool that takes the docs and then spits out readable forms.  I used it to make a single HTML view of the docs (a single html page).  But I will be changing it to create wiki pages for each command instead, then I'll put the wiki pages up on the server.

I have to take a couple days to go through all of the PRPL command and minimally document them.  The core command are the same as CRPL, but it is the game specific APIs that everyone is interested in.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: virgilw on September 18, 2016, 04:42:20 PM
I'll get the docs out just as soon as I'm past the release.  I have a tool that takes the docs and then spits out readable forms.  I used it to make a single HTML view of the docs (a single html page).  But I will be changing it to create wiki pages for each command instead, then I'll put the wiki pages up on the server.

I have to take a couple days to go through all of the PRPL command and minimally document them.  The core command are the same as CRPL, but it is the game specific APIs that everyone is interested in.

Yes sir we are. This is really should be low priority, PRPL is used only by a handful of us old faithfuls. We're all patient (and we know how to extract code!)  :-X
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 18, 2016, 08:23:45 PM
Agreed. On a side note, thanks for the code snippets on the wiki, it makes it easier to understand the back end. I consider the idea of making a full game where the mechanics are based (in their entirety) on the scripting, so that any script has access to the complete logic, down to engine-level. Probably inefficient, but good for the minority who would script. We notice the exception far more than the rule, CW3 Totems/Forge.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 08:44:12 PM
Code snippets? I might be missing something here.  ???
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: GoodMorning on September 18, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
When last I looked, Wiki->PF->PRPL->Alphabetic command list -> (various commands) commonly contained a section of code in... C#?

This gave a limited insight into Virgil's back-end of PRPL, such as the stack being composed of "Data" objects.
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 18, 2016, 09:41:54 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Vanguard on September 21, 2016, 02:40:47 AM
Quote from: Ovalcircle on September 17, 2016, 08:32:05 PM
I was playing an exchange map and the blue ships and a doppel decided to travel to the next exchange map.

Well it´s the constituion class that is taking a hike after all. So, to boldly go where no particle fleet has gone before! 8)
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: harrymcb on September 21, 2016, 07:42:52 AM
Any "Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts" on "CITG". i don't have the preview but as i understand it a CITG is a fun 2 line message and a small image. I'm wondering what can be put in them?
Title: Re: Sorrontis' Inane Ramblings & Shower Thoughts
Post by: Sorrontis on September 21, 2016, 01:24:35 PM
CITGs are cool. See the split off post for further comments.

But, what I want to say is:

Truth be told. There's still so much to explore in the map making, that I've barely looked into the PRPL yet. Virgil really did push himself with everything in this game.