Finding the comments by map moderators overly negative and not constructive toward encouraging new mapmakers to submit maps.
If you want to be elitist, fine, but it will be a small community.
I think you may have a point. This can happen in any small group and isn't really the fault of any one person. It really isn't even a conscious intent. Things can just tend towards "terse and negative".
I have two proposals, though:
1: A reminder to all map moderators that their comments on a map are public and will be read by the map author. So try to make them constructive.
2: Anyone on the forums can become a map moderator. So, if you want to really change things then become a map moderator yourself.
Your completely right.... but you must understand that about 70-80% of all custom maps coming through are impressively low quality. :) And I am still seeing a surprisingly large amount of 80 height maps coming through that don't need to be that height. :(It hurts my morals as a map maker. I have not submitted a map in a long time because of the time it takes me to make a good map. Give me 10-20 minutes and I can make a better map than many of these. It hurts me to approve some of these maps...
But your right, our comments should be more "constructive".
when I play a map I almost always look at the moderator comments too and I almost always agree. and the comments are negative becuase of... (to lazy just look at fishercks post)
I think comments can be used either to reinforce good habits and make constructive comments, or it can be slanted towards overly critical.
Currently the map moderator population has a number of skilled map makers and they measure submitted maps by their standards (and the standard of the in-game maps). Since the maps fall short of these benchmarks, the maps receive negative criticism.
First, I'd like to invite as many of the playing community as possible to consider becoming map moderators. Influence the comments by example, rather than by criticism. :) See this thread (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=8010.0) for the open invitation.
As for map quality: Many of the current mapmakers simply want to create brutal, strong maps. There are few sophisticated, clever maps that are simply playable. A lot of maps require one to study the map in the map editor, which I don't believe is how maps should be to be "great", Many maps are slugfests, and others are simply painted with fields. None of which I think are the hallmarks of great maps. If there are not a few seconds leeway, then the bulk of players cannot successfully play and win the map, which discourages them, and that in turn is not good for the long-term viability of the game.
Quote from: RichieRich on September 20, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
Finding the comments by map moderators overly negative and not constructive toward encouraging new mapmakers to submit maps.
If you want to be elitist, fine, but it will be a small community.
I couldn't agree more. This is also why I strongly opposed against a rating system that would only allow map moderators to vote. Every opinion counts just as much and it's the players who make the community. Some people have more time available to visit the forums or even become a map mod, but probably 90% of all players just plays, and that's perfectly fine.
Of course it's nice to have some kind of indication whether a map is considered a good or a bad one, but the normal comments already suit that need, so I'm not sure whether these moderator comments should be visible at all (although I can't complain about the ones I received). As far as I understood their initial purpose only was to be able to explain why a map should be rejected.
So far I haven't been able to review any map yet, except for a few by Virgil himself, but when I feel I really have to make some critical remarks I would make sure to say something nice about the positive aspects as well. Almost every map has some! I already do this for 20 months with the normal map comments.
That said I think people more often should just say nothing. I tend to make a nice comment when I really like something or just be quiet when I don't, because that says just as much. "A nod is as good as a wink", as I believe the English saying is. Not every map is tailor made just for you, so if you don't like it just move on.
Apart from that I think quality is in the eyes of the beholder, so everyone should be able to judge for themselves. In my opinion map mods should just make sure all criteria by KnuckleCracker (regarding content and such) have been met and leave the evaluation of map quality to the entire community. Self-regulating systems work best.
Quote from: Grauniad on September 20, 2011, 11:04:08 AM
Currently the map moderator population has a number of skilled map makers and they measure submitted maps by their standards (and the standard of the in-game maps). Since the maps fall short of these benchmarks, the maps receive negative criticism.
I am very surprised to read this, because it's you who proposed most of the elitist idea's recently, that I do not agree with as you know.
Quote from: Grauniad on September 20, 2011, 11:04:08 AM
As for map quality: Many of the current mapmakers simply want to create brutal, strong maps. There are few sophisticated, clever maps that are simply playable. A lot of maps require one to study the map in the map editor, which I don't believe is how maps should be to be "great", Many maps are slugfests, and others are simply painted with fields. None of which I think are the hallmarks of great maps. If there are not a few seconds leeway, then the bulk of players cannot successfully play and win the map, which discourages them, and that in turn is not good for the long-term viability of the game.
I'm very sorry to say this (and you know CW has a very warm place in my heart), but a map maker shouldn't be thinking about "the long-term viability of the game". That is something for Virgil to think about. Map makers should be having fun creating maps, which by the way also serves the long-term viability of the game. Authors should do exactly what their creative minds tell them to and whether others like the resulting product or not shouldn't matter. Of course anyone likes his/her maps to be played, but for this people just have to learn. Besides that some authors may choose to target a smaller but more dedicated group of players (like myself). That's what niches are for and this should be fine too.
I know you don't like brute force maps and long slogs, but others do. Please respect that and play something else yourself.
I know there are skilled map makers and I do sincerely appreciate the efforts put into the maps I enjoy playing more. However, context and comprehension are in the eye of the beholder. We dont know the individuals who post maps and some of the comments posted could be contrued as very mean depending on the circumstances of the map maker.
I played thousands of CW1 maps, and most were not fantastic, but hundreds were. And not all for reasons of complexity or uniqueness - for me anyway. I liked the freedom of the approval system - finish it and it will be posted. I think the availability of custom maps and the ability to post them makes the games something very special indeed. I believe that it is fairly easy to determine whether you are going to enjoy a map or not, if not by the thumbnail and scores, within a few moments of starting it.
I personally dont see the point in a lot of maps but each to their own. You want to post a map that takes 47 seconds with unlimited energy? No problem. I wont be playing it but so long as someone isnt deliberately trying to clog up the maps unnecessarily, I just dont have a problem. I am reminded of Frank Zappa's "so what" attitude for some reason. And the funny thing is, in CW1, some of the easiest looking maps got the most downloads and scores so someone must like them.
I'd have no problem with some kind of section of moderator recommended maps. In fact I think it'd be pretty cool.
I dont post that much. I do admin on another forum which kind of takes up my time, but I like the community here. Very friendly with only one obnoxious poster to my memory. I think the games are the best two games I have ever played and I'd love to see it get the recognition it deverves and maintaining a welcoming and positive attitude here can only be meaningful to that end.
Regarding the 80 height map issue:
I suggest, if possible with some code, that map moderators have the ability to alter the height of maps after they've been uploaded so as to make maps that don't need 80 height not use 80 height.
I can see that this COULD be abused, cutting off maps, but I would hope that the mods would only do it for maps that use the first 30 or so rows, then have 50 rows of normal terrain.
Unfortunately, it is often not that simple. Anyways, I don't think that would be a power granted to "normal" map mods. :)
Quote from: RichieRich on September 20, 2011, 01:14:09 AM
Finding the comments by map moderators overly negative and not constructive toward encouraging new mapmakers to submit maps.
I'm glad you brought this up as I'd noticed it too - in fact I think I can pinpoint the exact map which brought you to post this!
It looks like the senior members of the community are taking steps to address the issue.
I tend to ignore the moderator comments when selecting a new map to download and just make up my own mind after playing it.
After all, if the map was too bad, it wouldn't have made it past the moderators.
Quote from: Grauniad on September 20, 2011, 11:04:08 AM
First, I'd like to invite as many of the playing community as possible to consider becoming map moderators. Influence the comments by example, rather than by criticism. :) See this thread (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=8010.0) for the open invitation.
I'm very keen on becoming a map moderator - I mean, who wouldn't want to get paid to play their favourite game!
;)
Little joke. Very little joke!
Seriously, I'm already making an effort to leave encouragement/constructive feedback on maps I complete.
Of course, this helps toward the 50 posts I need to become a map moderator and hopefully Grauniad will deem that it doesn't count as spamming the boards!
I've not been active on the forums, but I'm
very active playing CW2, and have been since the week it was released so I see this as a logical progression. The ever improving front-end of CW2 is directly responsible for getting me involved in the community. Now it's so easy to just click the little 'i' and get instant access to everything - scores, moderator comments, user comments.
I look to the range/quality of custom CW1 maps that were available a year after it's release and drool when I think about the future of CW2 maps...
I thrashed the life out of CW1 and its custom maps, but never got involved in the community. It was by pure chance that, when I submitted a score on one of MadMag's maps, I noticed his comment that CW2 had just been released. At first I thought he was joking! The good part of getting CW2 right away was that I didn't have to wait. The bad part was that, not being part of the community, I missed out on the months of anticipation...!
Just as an aside, I'm not a map maker. I'm a player. I have no talent for creating maps, but I'm pretty durn good at extracting the maximum from them...
Quote from: Cavemaniac on September 21, 2011, 04:50:21 PM
I'm very keen on becoming a map moderator - I mean, who wouldn't want to get paid to play their favourite game!
Check your messages... The pay stinks, though.
;) it stinks so bad I think my money-wise profit is negative... ;)
Now that we have made the moderator comments attributable to a moderator (and each moderator has the option to decide whether their comments are published) what do the general map player think of the usefulness of the comments?
I think it is a great indicator of what type of map to expect. I'd like to see the comments portrayed in the CW2 built-in browser (accessible from the "Find Maps Online" button) as well, but I think that will be trickier due to formatting constraints.
Edit for clarification. And to acknowledge that indeed the comments are visible if a regular browser is used to navigate to the web page for each individual map.
They can be seen in the browser, if you go to a specific map.
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=8523.msg57150#msg57150
(http://three-ninjas.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/double_facepalm.jpg)
Quote from: RichieRich on October 23, 2011, 02:22:49 PM
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=8523.msg57150#msg57150
I'm also not happy with this. What happened to 'constructive criticism'?
I don't like it when one person implies to speak for all of us, which certainly isn't true. I feel that a completely wrong impression is given about the map mods in general. When I would read these kind of comments as a first time map maker I would certainly start to dislike this 'elitist community'.
CW2 needs much more maps! Stop complaining about taste and just play the ones you like!
I personally agree as well as disagree with UpperKEES.
When a map mod writes a comment, they are unofficially representing the Knuckle Cracker team one way or another. Thus if one writes a rather negative comment, like the one shown a couple posts ago, they do give the entire team a bad image.
Believe me, as someone who's part time job is being a cashier, you come to learn quickly that the impression that you give the customer while serving them is very important because that is the impression that the customer walks out of the store with. Having said this, yes, their are a handful of customers that are rude and irrational. If I were to tell these customers to "get lost" or "next time, we won't be so nice", (not that anyone here has literally said that) not only would I lose my job, I would lose a customer for the store.
Although I do understand that one can be fed up of terrible maps (like a cashier can be fed up with annoying customers) but that does not mean that you should be rude or negative to them back.
It is simple customer service and public relations, and if we want our friend virgilw to be successful with his game (and why wouldn't we ??? ) than we must respect his paying customers and offer to help them rather then berate them for making a poor map. You want them to continue playing, not to give up because someone told them their map stinks.
A helpful and encouraging community will always make a game better, and will most definitely help to bring in new players as well as keep the old ones playing.
>Tony
I noticed Virgil removed some off-topic posts (including one of mine) from the comments for this map, which is a good thing.
However I do have a problem with this line:
Quote from: Karsten75 on October 21, 2011, 01:32:04 PM
Initially none of us were going to approve this map. Consider yourself lucky. We might not be so lenient a second time round. :)
I think it's not correct when other people speak for me while I am not able to respond. This is why I like to emphasize here that I don't share this opinion and that any map meeting the criteria set by Virgil should be approved, regardless of taste.
Quote from: TonyP2000 on October 24, 2011, 08:56:28 AM
Although I do understand that one can be fed up of terrible maps (like a cashier can be fed up with annoying customers) but that does not mean that you should be rude or negative to them back.
The main difference is that nobody
has to play these maps. Checking the content is enough. When you decide to play it anyway, you're a player, not a map mod.
If you feel things could be improved, just post some tips how to achieve this. Negativity has never helped anyone.
I also wonder why some people think everyone else will share their opinion. I
do like long slogs. I
do like maps that make me think. I
do like unconventional concepts. That annoying customer could very well be someone else's favourite customer. So please don't try to force your taste upon others. Just let everyone (and their maps) be.