This topic is for discussion of map #5343: CWDig Claustrophobia
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=5343)
Author: cornucanis
Size: 80x60
Desc:
WARNING: This map is very heavy on the CRPL elements! You should play #5229 CWDig Introduction before playing this map as it will explain the CRPL scripts used in this map. This map is quite difficult. You'll need quick thinking, careful micromanagement, and precise strategy to overcome this puzzling mission. Do you think you're up to the challenge? #CWDig #CRPL #NoDigitalis #TechLimits #ACEmitters #AntiCreeper
Unless I missed some loophole, this map should be VERY difficult. You'll have to restart many times to figure out how to get a foothold. This map is not for the weak of will. There are several parts where you're barely able to pass by the skin of your neck, so manage those packets wisely!
I cant figure it out. I think I will wait for it to come out on video.
Quote from: arby793 on January 23, 2018, 12:50:21 AM
I cant figure it out. I think I will wait for it to come out on video.
That's better than giving silent ragequit 1 like many ppl seem to have done. :) Thanks for it!
Quote from: Builder17 on January 23, 2018, 09:40:29 AM
Quote from: arby793 on January 23, 2018, 12:50:21 AM
I cant figure it out. I think I will wait for it to come out on video.
That's better than giving silent ragequit 1 like many ppl seem to have done. :) Thanks for it!
I made this map to be brutally and punishingly hard so a low rating was expected before ever posting it.. This map wasn't designed to be completed by the average player. I will make more accessible maps in the future, I just wanted to make one that was extremely difficult and see who can pass it..
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/ct0jfCf.png)
Looks like nobody so far ;)
I tend to avoid maps that have only one strictly limited method of completion, it is just not fun knowing that you are blindly seraching for just the correct arrangement and timings of limited resources. This is just my preference though, there is a place for every kind of map so well done for making this!
Quote from: D0m0nik on January 23, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
I tend to avoid maps that have only one strictly limited method of completion, it is just not fun knowing that you are blindly seraching for just the correct arrangement and timings of limited resources. This is just my preference though, there is a place for every kind of map so well done for making this!
Definitely understandable. I like using unit limits, but there are usually many ways to approach my maps. This one is a bit different, though, in that regard. I honestly mainly just made it to see if I could really make a map that stays at 0 posted scores for a decent amount of time. I'm up to over a day so far! I'm expecting shingetsu or baba to post a score soon though since they usually finish any map no matter how punishing it is.
My future maps definitely won't be this brutal. Future maps in this particular series will still have limited units since that's the theme of the series, though. I'm gonna try to go back to making more relaxed maps now so they'll be more accessible.
I'll defo give it a go when I have a spare few hours, should be an interesting puzzle. Got a load of work in though so won't be today :-[
Wow, got there in the end! Despite my earlier comment I really enjoyed it beacause it was quite a challenge and so very rewarding conquering each quarter. Tough map though.
Quote from: D0m0nik on January 24, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
Wow, got there in the end! Despite my earlier comment I really enjoyed it beacause it was quite a challenge and so very rewarding conquering each quarter. Tough map though.
Nice! I'm glad someone finally beat it. I tried to make many different challenges in this map. I think most people don't get past the initial "stabilize base" challenge though, because I made that one especially rough. You definitely need a lot of tricks in your arsenal to conquer this map, I wanted to make a map that would be very satisfying for people who are able to successfully pull off all the tricks.
One thing's for sure though, this is definitely never gonna be a speedrun map ;D
oh no man! thats too much :-[
Thanks for the great map Cornucanis. Another night of lost sleep! I really admire how you and the other guys make such finely crafted maps. My time is twice yours so I'd love to hear how you did it. Please make more!
Quote from: POMie on January 27, 2018, 06:04:55 AM
Thanks for the great map Cornucanis. Another night of lost sleep! I really admire how you and the other guys make such finely crafted maps. My time is twice yours so I'd love to hear how you did it. Please make more!
Good to hear that you enjoyed playing! I'm happy to see several people have solved the map now. It was fun balancing this map so you have to dance on a razor's edge to get a foothold, but I was worried I had made it too tricky.
Spoiler
Ok so regarding the speed.. There are a few challenges in this map, but they get easier as you progress. The first challenge (securing a foothold in the emitter room) has pretty much only one solution, so I assume that isn't where you're losing time. The second challenge (gathering weapons and attacking northeast room) is probably the one that makes the biggest difference for time. After you've secured the northeast room the rest of the map is pretty easy by comparison.
So I've made an Imgur album dump (https://imgur.com/a/8atee) of my strategy for this "second challenge". You can see in the first image I've already made the first room, the "landing pad" and the "satellite collector" safe with my terp. I assume you did this all more or less the same as I did since it's straightforward.
The first thing I do after securing those locations is to make room for my CN in the emitter room. Having your CN in the emitter room allows you to connect the little island to the west to your network and collect the nearby blaster tech. It also allows you to connect to the little "landing pad" to the east and the collector over there by extension.
After collecting the first blaster tech I move the CN over to connect the collector and start terping a "hallway" in the northeast room. You'll have to make a few blaster suicide runs to thin the creeper enough to start terping. This hallway focuses the AC right where you want it and lets you connect the room to your CN network so you can acquire the other blaster tech. Note that bridging (using flying units to connect network) is also an option here, but is much more laborious and not worth it in my opinion.
Once you've collected the second blaster tech it's pretty much a steamroll over the rest of the map. I used the same "hallway" technique in the northwest room to quickly acquire the mortar tech. Hopefully this helps you out, I think this portion of my strategy was probably the main difference. I'd be interested to know how your strategy differed in general though.
I probably won't be making maps quite this difficult in the future. It's fun making one every now and then, but I like for most of my maps to be accessible to the average player. This one definitely does not fit that description :P
Thank you - your approach is very helpful and, as I suspected, my starting position made it much slower.
Spoiler
I foolishly positioned the CN to the left of the room as soon as possible and hovered my terp to get the blaster when I had my first beam. Looks like it would have been better to build more beams but I could not seal the room at the very start and had one wall square covered in creeper which leaked so I needed the blaster to clean up. If I could have sealed all the walls it would have needed less micromanagement and I could have repositioned the CN to the top of the room and left space for the blaster to address the path NE. Also, I omitted to remove the second wall of the room which would have given me more space for the AC wave.
I tried a few combinations of 1, 2 or 3 collectors plus the terp in order to seal the room in the first minute but failed. Now I see I overcomplicated it and micromanaged to a weaker position. (I think I managed once and made a subsequent mistake and had not saved - this map could use 20 save slots!) Your pics are very useful.
Keep up the great work!
I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting. Why is it so hard to believe that people don't enjoy micromanaging and restarting maps and the low score is a reflection of that dynamic? While I am sure a couple might have been due to "ragequiting" not all are and most people that play don't post on the boards.
If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players.
I restarted 5 times could not for the life of me figure out how to get a single weapon and gave it a 1. Not a rage quit 1, a reflection of the map not to my liking.
Cheers.
The problem some people have is that this mindset effectively makes it look like all difficult maps are bad because they're hard. By definition, a rating should be an indication of the quality of a map, not difficulty. But, there's definitely an argument to be made that rating makes more sense to be taken as player enjoyment instead, and difficult maps being rated lower based on the fact that less people could beat them is just an obvious side effect.
Personally, I believe that the game should not let you rate maps unless you've beaten them, so people who can't beat too difficult maps can't tank their rating because they're not good enough to beat the map. After all, the only way you've seen the map from start to finish is if you've finished it. Rating a map you didn't finish is like making a review of a game you didn't finish IMO, it's not fair to the map.
Quote from: Grabz on June 13, 2018, 02:46:26 AM
The problem some people have is that this mindset effectively makes it look like all difficult maps are bad because they're hard. By definition, a rating should be an indication of the quality of a map, not difficulty. But, there's definitely an argument to be made that rating makes more sense to be taken as player enjoyment instead, and difficult maps being rated lower based on the fact that less people could beat them is just an obvious side effect.
Personally, I believe that the game should not let you rate maps unless you've beaten them, so people who can't beat too difficult maps can't tank their rating because they're not good enough to beat the map. After all, the only way you've seen the map from start to finish is if you've finished it. Rating a map you didn't finish is like making a review of a game you didn't finish IMO, it's not fair to the map.
I do understand that thought but for me it doesn't make sense, That is like saying you can't know if you like a movie, a book or a meal until you finish it. I have started books and after a few pages decided I didn't like it or watched a movie and not finished it or taken a bite of a burger and not finished it, I have a number of games in my steam account that I never play that I have not finished because I don't like them, I rate them low and steam steers me away from games that are similar. Does that make my opinion invalid? I did't like them for a number of reasons, why invest time in something I am not getting anything out of?
JMHO
Cheers
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 01:53:42 AM
I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting.
I never said or even implied that the low score was due to people rage quitting. The comment that said this was by a different person, builder17. If you're going to come to the forums to insult a map designer because you didn't like their map, please at least try to get your facts accurate.
Quote from: cornucanis on June 13, 2018, 03:27:39 AM
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 01:53:42 AM
I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting.
I never said or even implied that the low score was due to people rage quitting. The comment that said this was by a different person, builder17. If you're going to come to the forums to insult a map designer because you didn't like their map, please at least try to get your facts accurate.
Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 01:53:42 AM
Why is it so hard to believe that people don't enjoy micromanaging and restarting maps and the low score is a reflection of that dynamic? While I am sure a couple might have been due to "ragequiting" not all are and most people that play don't post on the boards.
If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players.
I should point out that you're presenting a ludicrous strawman here. I never said I was unhappy with the score of the map, I actually said quite the opposite if you had actually read the posts instead of seeing the word "ragequit" uttered by someone before immediately posting your rant.
Quote from: cornucanis on January 23, 2018, 01:04:12 PM
I made this map to be brutally and punishingly hard so a low rating was expected before ever posting it.. This map wasn't designed to be completed by the average player. I will make more accessible maps in the future...
I'm sorry if the map caused you frustration and you didn't enjoy it, but I fully expected low rating for that exact reason so please actually read a thread before commenting completely unjustified strawman arguments next time.
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 03:46:55 AM
Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.
I may be unusual for this, but I do feel insulted when someone posts the following about my map based on a absolute strawman of an argument:
QuoteIf you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players.
QuoteI really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting. Why is it so hard to believe ...
It just comes off as condescending and insulting especially when built on a false premise.
Quote from: cornucanis on June 13, 2018, 03:49:24 AM
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 01:53:42 AM
Why is it so hard to believe that people don't enjoy micromanaging and restarting maps and the low score is a reflection of that dynamic? While I am sure a couple might have been due to "ragequiting" not all are and most people that play don't post on the boards.
If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players.
I should point out that you're presenting a ludicrous strawman here. I never said I was unhappy with the score of the map, I actually said quite the opposite if you had actually read the posts instead of seeing the word "ragequit" uttered by someone before immediately posting your rant.
Quote from: cornucanis on January 23, 2018, 01:04:12 PM
I made this map to be brutally and punishingly hard so a low rating was expected before ever posting it.. This map wasn't designed to be completed by the average player. I will make more accessible maps in the future...
I'm sorry if the map caused you frustration and you didn't enjoy it, but I fully expected low rating for that exact reason so please actually read a thread before commenting completely unjustified strawman arguments next time.
Quote from: chwooly on June 13, 2018, 03:46:55 AM
Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.
I may be unusual for this, but I do feel insulted when someone posts the following about my map based on a absolute strawman of an argument:
QuoteIf you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players.
QuoteI really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting. Why is it so hard to believe ...
It just comes off as condescending and insulting especially when built on a false premise.
I read the comments quickly and didn't notice that it wasn't you specifically who wrote that. For that I apologize, However that doesn't make my statements any less invalid nor does it make it insulting, condescending or invalid. I did have to look up strawman since I am not a debater. And while technically it is the correct use of the term, It was not my intent since as I stated I didn't realize it wasn't you're statement.
Therefore I still stand by my original statement. I just redirect it to those that agree with the statement I am arguing against.
Cheers
I am reminding my apology because as seen in another more recent thread, even though you didn't specifically mention your belief in this thread you did in another thread and if you feel insulted that is an issue you will just have to resolve on your own.
what chwooly said. i played with it, realised the strat it would take and how exact it was and decided no thanks.
i dont play creeper world for my manual dexterity. to me the maps that require constant pausing for hours are not fun. they are just... like doing an all white puzzle. at least with a puzzle, there is a picture at the end for your efforts. for maps like this, there is nothing but the challenge itself.
to me, the fun of creeper is figuring out the issue, then enjoying the lead you create for yourself. this map doesnt allow that.
im certain some people out there like that though.
WOW, such a cool map!
Saw a little of the age-old "Map rating" argument: Is the rating based on how much I like a map, or is it based on the quality of a map? Yanno, it's a game so do whatever ya like I guess.
My personal take on it is that I only rate maps low if they're just plain stupid or poorly designed. My wife loves Pride and Prejudice but once they start talking I can't understand a word. Intellectually, I can concede that it's a well-done movie for what it is; I just don't like what it is. They need some zombies or something.
So for this map - if you don't like pausing then don't pause. I paused at the beginning and maybe a few times here or there but for the most part once you get a foothold on the lower right corner (which isn't super-difficult, imo), you're good to go.
*For what it's worth* - I'm not particularly fond of having to fly stuff back and forth to keep it powered. And I can see how chwooly and others would simply refuse to do that. Providing two relays would've solved that issue, yet still retained the difficulty.
My solution: I turn maps like this into a RTS game where I'm having to juggle several things back & forth. I don't like doing that, but at least it's a kind of brain exercise so it's like "fun work". I also don't watch stuff meticulously. I set up a design, then let the AC pump while I do some office work, then come back to it and release the AC then repeat.
What's really cool about this map is its epic nature yet small size. That's very rare. Maps like this don't tempt me to buy a new computer - they're nice & smooth even at max speed. I like that this series teaches some new techniques, like how to build an AC pump using only terps. I'd actually never thought to do that.
Sorry for the long review for such a short map, but I thought this map was worthy. Thanks for the map! ;D ;D
Quote from: Johnny Haywire on December 15, 2018, 01:45:03 AM
(Pretend I left the stuff you said here so I don't have to clutter up the page reposting it all)
Thanks for the kind words! I knew when I made this map it would cause frustration to most people who encountered it, but I hoped it would at least create enjoyment for a few other people who are masochistic enough to be into these sort of maps. I found out just how frustrating yet amazing a small and well-crafted map can be by playing ThirdParty's classic micro puzzle maps, so my map style was definitely heavily influenced by those.
I actually learned a few new tactics myself while making this map. I didn't even know some of the necessary moves would be possible until I forced myself to figure out a strategy. I would basically just add a new area, make it hard enough that I couldn't figure out an immediately obvious solution, then flail around until something somehow gains ground and rebalance things accordingly 8)
Fair point about flying units out of ammo supply reach. It's a mechanic I usually try not to overuse. I think the only other map I made where you had to do it was the map before this one, where you had to make a terp zone that was temporarily out of range. It definitely starts to get tedious if you have to do it for an extended time, though.
Glad to hear someone else had an enjoyable time overall with the map! When I have time to make CW3 maps again I just might consider having another go at making a tricky map ;)
QuoteWhen I have time to make CW3 maps again I just might consider having another go at making a tricky map
Ha! Feel free to, m8. I always enjoy a good challenge. I thought the spores added a nice touch of difficulty to this map.
And while I'm thinking of it... just in case anyone has a difficult time with the spores (and sorry if this is obvious):
Spoiler
Spores don't target beams. So you can build multiple beams over time with your CN and then have the powered up beams ready to take down spores that launch after you build a reactor or two. Just in case ya didn't realize that. ;)