Author Topic: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon  (Read 856 times)

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Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« on: February 13, 2018, 07:13:27 pm »
This topic is for discussion of map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23


Author: Decagon
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Mega-Boss Battle! Strikefleet Delta is intercepted by Strikefleet Omega.

BilboGCL

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 06:46:33 pm »
Hi,
tough battle! Thanks!
Some questions left:
(click to show/hide)

At least I had to rethink my usual sleeper strategy what is fine!

Greetings from The Shire!

Keeper Decagon

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 07:18:28 pm »
Hi,
tough battle! Thanks!
Some questions left:
(click to show/hide)

At least I had to rethink my usual sleeper strategy what is fine!

Greetings from The Shire!

(click to show/hide)
"For me, there is no honour or glory. No praise to be had for what I do. I fulfill my purpose for the protection of all... neither of us are going to make it out of here alive." - ?? ??, 145th CE

chwooly

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 11:55:18 pm »
For me this is unfinishable, I know I shouldn't comment since my comments tend to be totally against the Gods of this forum, especially since they like overly hard maps and their opinions seem to be the only ones that count. However what made it really bad for me was the overwhelming singularity,  and not being able to rebuild collectors once destroyed or landing the CN on the 1 pixel bits of land they started on.

The rest of the series was very fun and I enjoyed it but honesty this is the kind of map just makes me regret playing the other maps, Kind of like how I feel right now waiting for the last GOT book that was supposed to be done 2 years ago. I was expecting an epic battle in line with the skill level needed for the other maps, Not a map where I had to suddenly transform from a medium skilled player to a Celestial level player.

GoodMorning

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 12:05:58 am »
chwooly: The phrase "sweet voice of reason" probably applies. Politely stating that a map is too hard to be fun for you helps the experienced mapmakers (who are necessarily going to be practiced players) to calibrate the difficulty of their maps.

If all we hear are the opinions of top-level players, then our maps are going to take their recommendations.

So ... thanks for helping us keep our feet on the ground.

(In this case, I think Decagon might have been aiming for "very hard", given that this is a late-in-the-series boss map. But he can answer that better than I.)
A narrative is a lightly-marked path to another reality.

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 05:21:41 am »
Chwooly - in your second paragraph you make a very reasonable point about difficulty progression, fair enough. But why lead with insults and rude comments in the first? You're deliberately provoking other forum members and then crying because they occasionally ask you to be respectful.

willbir

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 07:43:23 am »
It really is an absurdly ferocious map, I spent forever trying to get from the South island to the SE island without success, no matter what I tried I just couldn't muster the firepower to make it, if it wasn't for Decagon's hint above I would have given up. The map is labeled Mega-Boss Battle (understatement) though so we were warned.

Map makers should make whatever maps they like though, they donate huge time and effort for everyone's benefit, negativity and harsh ratings will just lead to fewer maps.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:02:39 am by willbir »

Keeper Decagon

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 11:11:31 am »
I have read all of the responses, and I must admit, this map is not kind. Even to me, the map maker and general insider to how this map works, it was a struggle. And I appreciate that not everyone is going to be able to complete this map either. If you desire the story, it is explained within the opening text of the map, with nothing beyond that apart from playing the map itself.

The Sleeper Forge and the enemy AC Berthas do, however, provide a unique challenge that can be overcome. I believe I have gained several weapon lover achievements whilst finalizing this map, and that is what it took to take down the Sleeper in the end. A horde of weapons and other structures is the key to wiping the floor with the Sleeper, as well as using your own Berthas to ensure their Forge remains impotent for as far as reasonably possible.

I did label the map as a Mega-Boss, and for good reason. I'm sure those of you who have played my other Boss Battles will have seen the difficulty steadily ramp up between them. This Mega-Boss is the culmination of the difficulty peak, and will probably remain the most difficult Boss Battle of the series. Strikefleet Omega was the most powerful Strikefleet out there. I wanted to make sure that was reflected in-game.

I apologize to those that were looking for only gradual increases in difficulty that this map has ruined the series for you. It's unfortunate your appreciation can be shattered so easily by one map, and I hope you can find enjoyment elsewhere in Colonial Space.
"For me, there is no honour or glory. No praise to be had for what I do. I fulfill my purpose for the protection of all... neither of us are going to make it out of here alive." - ?? ??, 145th CE

daniels220

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 07:53:19 pm »
Some thoughts:

Great job on the Sleeper Forge...great addition to an already amazing game mode. It's scary—which is the point—but at the same time, in the end it's no match for sufficiently stupid-high energy production. I finished the map in 26 minutes (i.e. quite fast) and was behind in upgrades the entire time—quite an interesting experience, compared to a normal Sleeper map where you pretty quickly (I think 2/2 is enough?) get to the point where you can just push forward and enemy weapons can't really do anything about it.

Re: the Singularity, I only experienced it once—a MASSIVE swarm of spores, right? I was terrified at first, and if it had "lived up to the hype" I absolutely would have been dead. But, uh—Decagon, are they all supposed to target the same spot, and carry almost no creeper? Because that's what happened for me. I had just killed one of the structures on the center island, and it targeted a spot just North of the totem. I had like 20 beams in range, which of course did almost no good, but only like half a dozen cannons and a couple mortars. Even at the "standard" 50 creeper/spore, I would have had to really scramble to contain the resulting wave of creeper, but in fact I never saw any—it never got further than the ~3x3 area covered by the spore graphics. Of course if the spores had been independently targeted I would have just died outright, as I said. As it was, the main problem was massive lag from so many spores in the air. IMO it would be better if they were independently targeted, but also far fewer, and with relatively low payload (maybe 10? 25?).

Re: hordes of weapons—yes, this was key. For those who don't know--"creeps" (the units created by the Sleeper) sit on top of a cell of Digitalis, and damaging it damages the creep. So a cannon set to target Digitalis can destroy creeps even under arbitrarily deep creeper—and, critically, even under an AE field. On top of existing Digitalis things get harder, as the cannons will spread out their fire and spend most of their time fighting regen—but that just means you need more of them :). I spent probably five in-game minutes building about 20 cannons at once (with max build speed), sending them off to clear an area of creeps, and immediately starting the next set.

The one criticism I would have—and this applies to the last 10+ maps in this series—is, please give us more than one Bertha. I can understand limiting them so you can't just spam and kill everything with only Berthas—this is in fact essentially my strategy on any map that doesn't limit how many you can build—but could we at least have three? The difference between one and three wouldn't be one of difficulty so much as nuisance, IMO (though it would certainly also allow for faster times)...it's not like "oh God I need three Berthas or I'm going to lose", but rather "ugh, I can hold each of these three positions indefinitely without a Bertha, but I can only push forward with one, and by now I've built enough stuff that the map is lagging really badly and dammit I want to be limited by my multitasking ability rather than having to just sit. and. wait. for the Bertha to charge."

GoodMorning

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 02:53:23 am »
A note on the Sleeper's Singularity:
I'm fairly sure it uses the Creeper under the Forge - no Creeper, no payload, no damage.

I'd like to see a version where it turns into a portal, similar to those in the CW3:A mission "Farewell"; coupled with a gravity well, this would be very effective.

The normal Singularity isn't an instant win for the player, either - it just provides an opening. You don't want the Sleeper to do an air assault and a Singularity at the same place/time.
A narrative is a lightly-marked path to another reality.

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 08:14:24 am »
I understand that some people depend on Berthas to push, and instead of just making every single one of my maps a "build enough Berthas and you'll annihilate everything", ESPECIALLY for the Sleepers, I limited it to one. Then you can still push, but you can't necessarily command control over the entire map, because that would make it too easy. Granted, I still want to make my maps fun, but I don't want to turn it into a regular Bertha fest like the early maps were.

Besides, you don't have only one Bertha. The AC Bertha is there too, and will be able to help you just as readily as the standard Bertha. It doesn't have a gigantic impact on the Creeper when it hits, but that's not the point. It helps your units grab a steady foothold on the front lines, or on a new bit of land. It reinforces your units rather than annihilate the Creeper in front of them. Don't underestimate how useful AC is.

You want three Berthas, you say? After some thinking, I will say no. HOWEVER, I will give you two. Not without effort mind, you'll have to fight for it. But then once you have the new Bertha, you can keep it for the rest of the campaign. Does that sound reasonable?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback regardless. :)
"For me, there is no honour or glory. No praise to be had for what I do. I fulfill my purpose for the protection of all... neither of us are going to make it out of here alive." - ?? ??, 145th CE

D0m0nik

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 11:55:41 am »
I think one Bertha is perfect for what you are trying (and succeding) to achieve. I would use two to 'walk' a path through the creep, one is enough to manage creeper density but you still need units to do most of the work. One extra near the end for a final push is a nice compromise though.

daniels220

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 12:19:06 pm »
GoodMorning: Interesting. I wonder if I had just landed a Bertha shot there when it fired, or if I placed one there shortly after (so only the first few dozen spores had much payload, and most of those got shot down by beams before they ran out of ammo).

Decagon, re: Berthas (responding in reverse order:)

Two sounds like a good compromise, and I don't mind fighting for it :).

Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?

Yes, I understand about "control over the entire map"...in maps with unlimited Berthas (including Sleeper maps), I generally reach a point where I have about 30% of the map and 4-5 PZ Berthas (I don't bother building them not on PZs, the difference is just so dramatic), and they're able to keep things suppressed so much that the only creeper deeper than 2 or so is immediately around emitters. Taking the other 70% of the map at this point takes a third or less of the time it took to get to that point... On Sleeper maps in particular, keeping creep collectors/reactors and even spore towers to a minimum makes a huge difference. I don't think a second Bertha on this map would really have allowed me to do that, though—the Sleeper is just too strong, and the Forge and weapons are the real threat, not the Creeper itself—so as I started by saying, two seems like a good compromise.

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 12:47:05 pm »
Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?
The AC Bertha used to consume 100 AC packets to deal 50 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So, for on-demand AC, you were paying twice as much for what you got out of it.

Now, it consumes 50 AC packets to deal 200 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So the AC spent to AC received is now 1:1, whilst it also deals quadruple the amount of damage to Creeper on impact. Should make it more effective for moderately deep Creeper too, as well as having a much faster charge time.
"For me, there is no honour or glory. No praise to be had for what I do. I fulfill my purpose for the protection of all... neither of us are going to make it out of here alive." - ?? ??, 145th CE

cornucanis

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Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 03:25:45 pm »
Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?
The AC Bertha used to consume 100 AC packets to deal 50 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So, for on-demand AC, you were paying twice as much for what you got out of it.

Now, it consumes 50 AC packets to deal 200 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So the AC spent to AC received is now 1:1, whilst it also deals quadruple the amount of damage to Creeper on impact. Should make it more effective for moderately deep Creeper too, as well as having a much faster charge time.

Actually the AC deposit is spread out over many cells. The blast zone has an area of 23 cells (it was supposed to be 25 but I just now realized I made a minor mistake in the burst function) and each cell receives the AC deposit, so it actually substantially amplifies the AC input. Smaller amounts of AC just didn't have much of an appreciable effect for a "super weapon" so I cranked up the balance to make it amplify your input quite a bit. You should be able to easily feed it by soaking up some of the AC it shoots with a sprayer.