Knuckle Cracker

Creeper World => Suggestions => Topic started by: Karsten75 on January 20, 2010, 04:23:52 PM

Title: Custom map rating system
Post by: Karsten75 on January 20, 2010, 04:23:52 PM
Now that I'm starting this, I feel deja vu. Anyway.

I don't think there is a problem with the map rating system per se, but I think that allowing map authors to determine the difficulty rating of maps might be misleading. What is easy for the map maker might be near impossible for the general audience and vice versa. (Notice the Latin phrases? Guess what we studied today)

To this end, I was wondering if it would be possible to implement a "difficulty voting" system where players can vote the difficulty of a map.

Yes, yes, I know, poor Virgil, there are only so many hours in a day.  Just thought I'd put it out there.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Aurzel on January 20, 2010, 04:32:55 PM
i like that, you could have a creator rating and player voted rating
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Indiana_nic on January 22, 2010, 01:00:37 AM
Also, it would be interesting to be able to sort the maps by ratings, downloads, difficulties etc...
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Aurzel on January 22, 2010, 01:41:44 AM
you can?
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Indiana_nic on January 22, 2010, 03:18:58 AM
You're right, sorry I didn't pay attention enough, the option is in small characters, but clearly written.. my mistake!
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Sniper on March 03, 2010, 10:17:20 AM
My proposal how should rating work (not to lose the expresive power of author but to give players power to change rating):

In a map description there would be:

Skill: Medium (Hard)

That means that author presented the map as hard and it was voted that the map is Medium.

How is the vote counted? It is the average of votes where authors rating is taken as three votes (this prevents quick shift by first voter) - it means that newly created map behaves like three people voted as author did.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: SPIFFEN on March 03, 2010, 10:28:51 AM
I have sayd this many times now , the mapmaker shouldnt be abel to choose the diffurculty of the map !
Now the maps ( custom maps ) show the best time and the avarage time it has been done in .

So that might should deteminate the hardness of the map ,
+ the vote of them who managed to finnish the map .

After you manage to finnish an map you should vote for the hardness of the map before you post your score ,
but still it might not give the right lvl of how hard it is =P
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Sniper on March 03, 2010, 10:35:42 AM
SPIFFEN: don't agree. Example:

Map will have best time 1:05. It can mean:

1) It is extremly easy and you can do it quesckly.

2) It is extremly hard and only siccles so far finished it because his skill and quickness (:-))

How can you recognize?


And vote has nothing to do with difficulty, it is about quality (both easy and hard map can be interesting as well as bad). Or at least I vote this way.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Oldsluglicker on May 05, 2010, 01:12:23 PM
Just a thought about ratings.  Would this help resolve the issue?

Difficulty Grading

1)   Think about the length of time you'd expect the game to be played in.

2)   During this time, would you expect to move Odin City?  Deal with spores?  Unexpected or concealed emitters?

3)   Moving Odin City.  2 points per move.

4)   Spores.  Ratio of spores / time interval = spore activity ratio
Example: 5 spores every three minutes = 0.166
                6 spores every six = 1.0
                2 spores every 2 = 1.0
                2 spores every 30 secs = 4.0

Spore activity points – 1 point per spore activity ratio (rounded up to whole number)

5)   Concealed/unexpected (gushers/geysers etc) emitters – 1 point per emitter

6)   Flood time – i.e. length of time taken to die if you sat there like a lemon and didn't do anything.  -1 point per min.

Difficulty rating approx:

Less than 1 – trivial
1-2 – easy
2-4 – medium
4-6 – hard
6+ expert
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: UpperKEES on May 05, 2010, 01:19:12 PM
I often move Odin City to make it easier for myself....

The idea is nice though, but who should determine those points? Only the creator of a map knows all of this, so maybe people should use something like this as a checklist. I can think of many more factors however, like roughness of the terrain, if emitters are cappable, amount of space to build initially, are tricks like bridging required, and so on, and so on....

Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Oldsluglicker on May 06, 2010, 03:55:56 AM
Now that I've seen how this has formatted it's come out a bit confusing.  The points should be added except for the last one 'flood time' which should be taken away.

I thought about terrain limitations etc and came up with the 'flood time' measure - If you've got plenty of time or space to do things, the 'flood time' will be longer than a tighter or more complex map and therefore 'easier'..... 

With regard to OC moving - what I was trying to portray is, is it necessary as part of the game? ie flying OC to build something?


Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: F0R on May 12, 2010, 05:11:09 AM
Difficlities vary between different players
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Sqaz on May 12, 2010, 08:18:33 AM
Quote from: Oldsluglicker on May 05, 2010, 01:12:23 PM
Just a thought about ratings.  Would this help resolve the issue?

Difficulty Grading

1)   Think about the length of time you'd expect the game to be played in.

2)   During this time, would you expect to move Odin City?  Deal with spores?  Unexpected or concealed emitters?

3)   Moving Odin City.  2 points per move.

4)   Spores.  Ratio of spores / time interval = spore activity ratio
Example: 5 spores every three minutes = 0.166
                6 spores every six = 1.0
                2 spores every 2 = 1.0
                2 spores every 30 secs = 4.0

Spore activity points – 1 point per spore activity ratio (rounded up to whole number)

5)   Concealed/unexpected (gushers/geysers etc) emitters – 1 point per emitter

6)   Flood time – i.e. length of time taken to die if you sat there like a lemon and didn't do anything.  -1 point per min.

Difficulty rating approx:

Less than 1 – trivial
1-2 – easy
2-4 – medium
4-6 – hard
6+ expert


So a map with just flat terrain with a 1000 intensity 0.1 interval would be trivial?
And a map where you've got non-stop spores and lots of concealed emitters but you just have to move the city would be expert only?

I don't think this would be very accurate.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: Capn Trey on May 23, 2010, 03:51:04 PM
I think I suggested something like this once here was my idea.

2 Rankings:
1) Rating 1-5 Stars based on how "Good" the level is.
2) Difficulty 1-5 Skulls based on how "hard" the level is.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: UpperKEES on May 24, 2010, 07:07:24 PM
The question is not how to display the difficulty, but how to determine it. I think it's fine as it is and should only be used as a rough indicator. People should always realize it is relative and depending on your experience, playing style and experience and playing style of the map maker.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: usofat25 on May 24, 2010, 11:41:01 PM
So I see a best time filter, but not a rating or average time filter. Maybe I'm just blind.

In terms of ratings, yes they are subjective, but I think we can agree there are certain game play strategies/challenges that make a level harder.

1. Having to cap emitters vs. not (although if a player hasn't taken the time in story mode to get through Tucana, that might be their own fault)

2. Specific placement of objects. Can Odin only fit in one spot? Is that Mortar only just effective enough if positioned just right?

3. Conservation of energy. Do you have reactors? Can you spread out or are you confined to a few collectors?

4. Close calls. Do you have to let the creeper come close to break down a wall or does it rush in so quickly before you get your feet settled that you have to build just right at the beginning?

The list goes on and on but I think well-rounded players can pick them out fairly easily.

Anyway, my suggestion, which is probably going to make Virgil sick if he ever reads it, because my guess is it would be a job and a half to implement.

You have a two-tiered user rating structure, like Metacritic. You have all the players feedback, which is one rating. Then you have a "cream of the crop" user-generated ranking, which is taken from votes of players who are identified as having a higher skill set than your average player. These are players that consistently have posted some of the best times on maps, have been some of the few to submit scores on maps that seem to best most players, and generally show a higher aptitude than the masses of users. Yes, this might be hierarchical, but it gives players something to shoot for in this community, and it also recognizes people who have mastered all the skills that I started to list above.

Again, this system would be redic to set up and probably wouldn't contribute substantively enough back to the Custom Maps section to be worth the time to set it up and administer it, but I think it would shed a lot of light on what Maps actually deserve to be.
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: UpperKEES on May 26, 2010, 06:02:17 AM
Quote from: usofat25 on May 24, 2010, 11:41:01 PM
So I see a best time filter, but not a rating or average time filter. Maybe I'm just blind.

There's indeed no filter for rating and average time, because these are subjective. If some newbies play a map that can be finished in 10 minutes, but they take 1.5 hours to complete it, the average time will go up dramatically. You can see both at the custom map page however to use them as an indicator if you like.

The factors you list are indeed considered by an experienced map maker, but as you say there are so many factors (with each their own weight according to the person playing the map) that it's impossible to set up a ranking system for it. Is it harder to run the 10000 metres than 100 metres in the best time? It just depends on your type of muscles....

I see what you're trying to say with your Metacritic, but we do have such a system: it's called 'comments'. ;) I never play a map without reading them and leave a comment 90% of the time. If people don't leave a comment or rating, they also wouldn't take some time to rate a map in an other way....
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: usofat25 on May 26, 2010, 10:45:43 AM
It's a fair point. All the comments on my Maps have come before the move to forum base, so all these comments aren't actually linked to profiles.

Still, our current hierarchy of players seems much more linked to the activity of a player on the forums and not so much based on their experience within the game. I would be fine sticking with the comments system, so long as I had a way of telling which players are the really good ones and which ones are slightly nwbish, without having to go through all the maps and find an individual player's score.

Perhaps if we were able to link/compile a player's scores to his forum profile?
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: UpperKEES on May 26, 2010, 11:58:01 AM
Quote from: usofat25 on May 26, 2010, 10:45:43 AM
Perhaps if we were able to link/compile a player's scores to his forum profile?

Yeah, that would be really nice, although I think such a thing won't get implemented for this version of CW any more.

Others (including myself) have requested such a thing before, like here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=906.0), here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=939) and here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=2707.msg13523#msg13523).
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: SPIFFEN on June 18, 2010, 08:04:18 AM
What if we during uploading an map , we get some more selections for how hard the map is .
We can select it as it is now , and also select :

Players who posted an score can select how hard it was .
( They can change it if the post an new score )

And an auto hardness depending on the AVG TIME .
Title: Re: Custom map rating system
Post by: F0R on June 30, 2010, 11:22:15 PM
Every author has a different opinion on what they want their map to be rated in difficlty. By making players rate the difficlty you would get a much easier option of what map to choose