Knuckle Cracker

Creeper World => Custom Map Discussion => Topic started by: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM

Title: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM
I've always wondered why some map makers create time limits for their maps. I'm not talking about a time limit for a certain section (I've done this myself) or a time limit to reach a certain item (i.e. survival pods were invented for this purpose), but I'm talking about a time limit that complete wipes you off the map, like a massive spore wave or a delayed 1000 intensity emitter that goes off after 1 hour.

When a player is less experienced and takes longer to finish a map than the average player, he's already 'punished' by getting a lower score, so why hurt him/her twice? When you are about to complete a map after a long battle and then get surprised by such a thing, would you start playing the same map again just for those last 5 minutes?

Of course knowing there's a time limit might increase the pressure and excitement a bit, but there are other ways to make a map increasingly difficult (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3354.0), with more satisfaction when you've finally completed it in my opinion.

Please tell me if and why you (dis)like these kind of terminal map endings.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: cquante on June 02, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
I agree with you.  I find forced time limits irritating.  As a new player, I avoided those maps like crazy.  Now as a slightly more experienced player, I will occasionally try them.  I STILL hate it when I'm a minute away from completing the map, and I get destroyed.  I don't waste my time playing the map again.






Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Blaze on June 03, 2010, 12:00:53 AM
I don't mind it as long as you know beforehand!
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: F0R on June 03, 2010, 02:56:20 AM
agreed
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Karsten75 on June 03, 2010, 11:43:28 AM
One reason I can think of is that if forces the map classification in the maps view page. :) shorter maps get more downloads. so if all the times on a map are short times, then the map gets downloaded more times.  Just a thought, I doubt anyone put that much thought into it.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: mthw2vc on June 03, 2010, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM
I've always wondered why some map makers create time limits for their maps. I'm not talking about a time limit for a certain section (I've done this myself) or a time limit to reach a certain item (i.e. survival pods were invented for this purpose), but I'm talking about a time limit that complete wipes you off the map, like a massive spore wave or a delayed 1000 intensity emitter that goes off after 1 hour.
I mainly use this tactic because my crazy plot requires it. When I'm done with campaign 1, I'll mostly stop with it.
Quote
When a player is less experienced and takes longer to finish a map than the average player, he's already 'punished' by getting a lower score, so why hurt him/her twice? When you are about to complete a map after a long battle and then get surprised by such a thing, would you start playing the same map again just for those last 5 minutes?
Because they infuriate me, therefore I actually want to finish them. (if you'll note, most of the maps I've submitted a score on are very difficult)
Quote
Of course knowing there's a time limit might increase the pressure and excitement a bit, but there are other ways to make a map increasingly difficult (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3354.0), with more satisfaction when you've finally completed it in my opinion.
I already use those methods enough. Just crack open my fourth map (Or my sixth when I'm done with it) in the editor and examine the emitters.
Quote
Please tell me if and why you (dis)like these kind of terminal map endings.
I'm fine with them as long as I know about them in advance. If they come out of nowhere, though, they can be annoying.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Neilos on June 03, 2010, 09:15:22 PM
Kind of depends for me.  I look at the time limit published and the scores posted, and decide if it's worth it.  I prefer a map that takes at least ten minutes to finish (I like getting into the game, rather than finishing before that can occur), so timers under ten minutes will usually put me off unless my supply of maps is low.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: F0R on June 05, 2010, 06:33:12 PM
it just gives pressure on the map
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Kamron3 on June 05, 2010, 06:51:08 PM
I like making my maps impossible-like, so I love time limit or sand traps.

_k
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Xirema on July 21, 2010, 03:23:25 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM
Of course knowing there's a time limit might increase the pressure and excitement a bit...

This in spades.  ;D

I've included Time Limit type elements on every map I've submitted thus-far. The biggest reason I add them is because when you're given an infinite amount of time to accomplish a task, then it is literally, only a matter of time until you finish. I don't personally see why a map should be deemed above "Medium" (or even "Easy" in some cases) if there isn't a mechanic that forces you to work faster than you might otherwise be comfortable. I like the chance of failure resulting from a too slowly executed plan.

Even if the map presents heavy creeper. But mass-spawning your attack units, backed by the packet limit of 32 packets per second, just doesn't strike me as being the epitome of challenge in this game.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM
... there are other ways to make a map increasingly difficult...

Quote from: UpperKEES on May 31, 2010, 01:16:44 AM
Of course there's always a turning point, but good maps makers will be able to postpone that moment as long as possible, sometimes until 1 minute before finishing the map. Randomness is not needed for that. You can for instance stack delayed emitters (so the amount of creeper increases over time), use walls to release more creeper, make the race for every tech a mini game, or limit the amount of units available by withholding the tech and only supply a few (initially locked) weapons (so losing them might cause failure), etcetera.

Granted. But what I've found, more frequently than not, is that there always comes a point, well beyond the onset of difficulty effects, where all the player needs to do is hunker down long enough so that he has enough energy and storage that when he finally advances, the only thing stopping him is the sudden onset of heart disease caused by the player spending too much time playing on the computer in the first place.  ::)

Seriously though, "Holding the Line" as waves and waves of creeper approach is only challenging (to me) so long as you can't keep using the same strategy forever. Steadily incrementing the creeper spawn rates is a nice choice-- One that I have used to some degree in the past-- But with how powerful some Turtling strategies can be, it just seems like there tend to be only two real options: Forcing the player to fight so aggressively that Attila the Hun would soil his pants at every mention of this player's aggression, or capping the time they have. Option 1 is a valid and real option that I have seen before..... In maps I can't beat. Which means that I can't make maps that use that strategy because, at least for the time being, I can't beat those maps, and as a result, can't submit maps I can't beat. If/when I become a better player, that will be a tangible option for me, but until then, Time Limits are how I roll.

And shy of all that, I would point at maps like my Limit Break (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2263&page=) series, where taking as much time as you want means trivializing the fact that you're supposed to be given limited energy and storage for the duration of the map anyways.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 02, 2010, 09:43:54 PM
When a player is less experienced and takes longer to finish a map than the average player, he's already 'punished' by getting a lower score, so why hurt him/her twice? When you are about to complete a map after a long battle and then get surprised by such a thing, would you start playing the same map again just for those last 5 minutes?

Well, I personally never set time limits above half an hour (my highest is 21 minutes on my recently posted Sequence (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2645&page=) map, and that one really resets itself, partially, every 3 minutes anyways, and is, above all else, more a concept map) but I would draw attention to some of my play-testing for my earlier maps, specifically, Uphill Struggle II (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2014&page=) and Limit Break II (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2402&page=). Both of these maps were in play-testing for weeks (when they really only took about half an hour each to construct in the first place) because at the time, I wasn't good enough to finish my own maps within the constraints I had set. But by practicing on them, I got better at the game and was later able to break the time limits by a substantially larger span of time than I had ever anticipated would be possible. (And then other players shattered MY record. Ego == Obliterated)

So just my two cents. I certainly understand why others might not favor it as a mechanic, but I thought I'd offer my own insight.  :P

EDIT: Added links, since it occurred to me as an afterthought that it might be beneficial for reference.
EDIT2:
Quote from: Karsten75 on June 03, 2010, 11:43:28 AM
One reason I can think of is that if forces the map classification in the maps view page. :) shorter maps get more downloads. so if all the times on a map are short times, then the map gets downloaded more times.  Just a thought, I doubt anyone put that much thought into it.

This has occurred to me, but only as an after-the-fact thought. I swear it.  :D
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: ontheworld on July 21, 2010, 07:37:43 AM
Quote from: Xirema on July 21, 2010, 03:23:25 AM

I've included Time Limit type elements on every map I've submitted thus-far. The biggest reason I add them is because when you're given an infinite amount of time to accomplish a task, then it is literally, only a matter of time until you finish. I don't personally see why a map should be deemed above "Medium" (or even "Easy" in some cases) if there isn't a mechanic that forces you to work faster than you might otherwise be comfortable. I like the chance of failure resulting from a too slowly executed plan.

Even if the map presents heavy creeper. But mass-spawning your attack units, backed by the packet limit of 32 packets per second, just doesn't strike me as being the epitome of challenge in this game.


a map with limeted space won't allow the 32 packets without deficit, meaning you'll die in the end.

also many "hard" maps just give you a though time starting up, and you can't beat a game without having a staring defence
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Karsten75 on July 21, 2010, 09:28:35 AM
There are many maps without a time limit that meet their respective classifications of easy, medium, hard, etc.  without a time limit. Some of these maps do not allow the luxury of allowing you to build up a standoff position - you have to fight for space for every blaster, reactor or other unit you need to position.

Since the game ranks players in order of descending time, cutting off the (s)lower players simply prevents them from playing the game. While it is legitimate for many maps, it is still not something I agree with as a rule.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: wessew on July 21, 2010, 12:11:48 PM
theese types of maps are great and as a so-so and slow player, i try theese maps all the time to make me better just did one last night and spent an hour and a half to get a score of1:19  TO TIE FOR FIRST

map is THE END 4 would hyperlink it but i need help with it
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Xirema on July 21, 2010, 11:16:54 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on July 21, 2010, 09:28:35 AM
There are many maps without a time limit that meet their respective classifications of easy, medium, hard, etc.  without a time limit. Some of these maps do not allow the luxury of allowing you to build up a standoff position - you have to fight for space for every blaster, reactor or other unit you need to position.

I should have clarified: I don't think maps without time limits don't deserve their rating, I MEANT to mean pretty much exactly what you said. I should have followed up by saying that Time Limits are what I use to reach that point.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Pyxis_GeeK on August 06, 2010, 10:42:14 PM
Sorry to resurrect an old thread here but have a question. I am considering making a series of maps and having a story to go along with them. I came across this thread and it changed my perspective somewhat on a tactic that I had planned on using. In reading the post it seems that as long as you know about the time limit beforehand and know of the urgency you seem to take the time limit a little more in stride. However having an emitter suddenly blast out with an intensity of 1000 with no warning would make me angry to say the least. My plan was to have Odin City teleport to a less than perfect area but be forced to hurry up and get out before the creeper volcano (Caldera I believe it is called in the game??? Correct me if I am wrong.) The point being to get out and stop being a turtle which is currently my style of play unless forced to be a rabbit and get it over quick. I enjoy the game but don't want to make a series of maps just to not have them downloaded because one or two use this time tactic. I liked the idea of stacking emitters and using the time delay to make them flood increasingly more amounts of creeper out. I must admit this tactic never crossed my mind until now. I just have a desire to make a mini story line while waiting on CW2 to be finished and released.

Advice is appreciated.

Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: ontheworld on August 07, 2010, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: Xirema on July 21, 2010, 11:16:54 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on July 21, 2010, 09:28:35 AM
There are many maps without a time limit that meet their respective classifications of easy, medium, hard, etc.  without a time limit. Some of these maps do not allow the luxury of allowing you to build up a standoff position - you have to fight for space for every blaster, reactor or other unit you need to position.

I should have clarified: I don't think maps without time limits don't deserve their rating, I MEANT to mean pretty much exactly what you said. I should have followed up by saying that Time Limits are what I use to reach that point.

how do time limits make you fight for every bit of space? They really only make you rush...

(i figured that now this thread is brought back to life anyways...)
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Twi on August 08, 2010, 10:07:08 AM
I have reverse time limits on two of my maps: you simply have to survive untill the time is up and the Creeper is gone. Of course, this doesn't mean that people can't have widely different scores. I just knew that was the only way to make a map you could win by defense.

I'm not a fan of time limits myself. I don't want my maps to be easy to lose. I prefer to work on making them challenging or enjoyable to play or win.

And of course, when it comes to playing those maps, I'm a noob and I know it. I lack the hardcore CW skills that many people have.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Tartarus Guard on August 08, 2010, 02:23:48 PM
I like time limits in the 5 to 15 minute range.  At this length I'm not too upset if I have to start over.  If I didn't realize there was a time limit on a 30 minute average map and I was wiped at 32 minutes, I'd be irritated.

I think they can be appropriate for hard or expert maps.  If I'm allowed to slog through a map meant to be beaten in ~10 minutes I can use the first slow run to see how the map works and make a targeted second run at the map.  However if the map wipes me out around 13 to 15 minutes it becomes more difficult to figure out what I'm doing wrong, makes me think more.
Title: Re: Time limits on maps - why?
Post by: Pyxis_GeeK on August 10, 2010, 11:20:57 AM
I have decided that I will only use the time limit on one map. Kind of like the ending of the story. Even though I am a newbie I always want to add to the community and dont want to spend my time or waste any one elses on something that is not fun. With that said I will continue the development of my maps and submit them and leave it to you the community to give me feedback. I want to make something entertaining as well as challeging. 

And by challenging not stacking 10 1000 intensity emitters....


I think its kind of fun making a map. Setting the emitters at an intensity level, loading the level seeing what happens making tweaks here and there reloading the level. I have made maps that when I finally beat them I feel like I have accomplished something. I want the community to take that away when they play one of my maps.

As always advice is always appreciated.

For now back to work. Tonight the map creating continues  :)