They seem to be getting an insanely low score for every map they've played. 5 minutes on a 50 minute map, 1 minute on a 9 minute map, 9 minutes on a 1 hour map. Is busizhe a hacker, or just a very good speedrunner?
I was just thinking the same thing. At first I brushed i off as him being really good, but when i saw 20 scores of 12 min or higher and Busizhe had 2:38, I started getting suspicious. I'm trying not to accuse busizhe of hacking in case i'm wrong an he really is a speedrunner, but I put images showing that there is valid reason for concern.
Images are from the map The Split (https://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=22023.msg150916#msg150916 )
1. busizhe score compared to others
2.Start of map
3. Me at the time of 2:38, which is what Busizhe time is. (This isn't really for comparison to me as much as it shows the state of the map and the enemies present at that time.)
Always dangerous to accuse another of cheating, I have seen Alter Old accused many times on Cw3 only for him to post a video and humble the accuser. Would be great if Busizhe could give us some sort of spoiler though as the times are staggering.
Well Busizhe scores are definitely highly suspicious. I don't see how it can be done without cheating or some exploit/bug.
It really sucks as it takes some of the fun out of the game so it's worth investigating further in any case. While I agree that you should be careful about accusations there's over 10 maps with very suspicious scores by him and I see that some of his scores seems to have gotten deleted already(?). I'd be happy to be proven wrong though and if he is just very good he should take it as a compliment.
I dont know if it is hacking really, it is highly suspicious however.
I know the mods are aware of this.
However, it would be great if we could do things a bit more diplomatically.
Also, on certain maps, busizhe has similar times as others. It is also possible that he is playing a earlier version of the game, so certain things respond differently (emitters being lathed faster for example).
Sorrontis sent me a message earlier, but I forgot to respond, I was pre-occupied with other matters.
Right now we have no mechanism to do anything - that's if we even want to do anything - not going to ask Virgil to take time out to go into the score tables to nuke a player's scores if you can't even definitively tell they're fake*. Someone hypothetically getting some kicks out of hacking his results is very far down on the list of things I'd even want to fix.
Virgil specifically invented the new way of scoring so those "paranormal scores" would not show up for ordinary players - but by acclaim that feature got relegated. So if you see suspect scores, deal with it or develop selective blindness or just ignore them.
*I don't care. Don't send in proof that his scores are fake.
** I should be more polite, but right now I can't find a more political way of saying that by design, we'll; always have hackers with us and it's not worthwhile to try and implement methods to foil then if they just get around them in a different way.
Quote from: Karsten75 on October 19, 2016, 11:21:18 AM
Sorrontis sent me a message earlier, but I forgot to respond, I was pre-occupied with other matters.
...
*I don't care. Don't send in proof that his scores are fake.
That's why I left it alone once I didn't get a response. It's just not important right now. :o 8)
Edit: maybe we should close this thread or pull it completely? It's not constructive.I spoke too soon, why, I don't know. Carry on.
Quote from: Sorrontis on October 19, 2016, 11:04:54 AM
However, it would be great if we could do things a bit more diplomatically.
Huh how is this not being handled diplomatically? Everyone in this thread are being very respectful imo.
Quote from: Sorrontis on October 19, 2016, 12:06:41 PM
maybe we should close this thread or pull it completely? It's not constructive.
Wait, what? I for one think it was very constructive as these scores have bothered me alot the last few days and thanks to this thread I now know that: 1. I'm not the only one. 2. As of now there is no legit explanation. 3. The developer won't do anything about it. Whichever way you feel about it, that is obviously useful information to the players of this game. Thanks to this information I will now try to ignore these scores and go back to enjoying the game. How is that not constructive?
Also requesting this be looked into, it does not reflect well on the game to me.
There will always be hackers, and the fewer there are, the more rewarding it is for them.
Better, then, to leave well enough alone. Cheat times are easily ignored, and if they are real, marveled at when a video is released.
It is an amazing feeling to see yourself at the top of a long list of players. And while it can feel nice to see yourself at eighth place but know that 1-7 are all cheaters, it just isn't the same.
I like to think of myself as considerably open-minded. Seeing the bright side of a situation as easily as the dark. But I can't think of a single redeemable situation for someone who would hack the game for the sake of putting themselves on the top board. At best, they cheat the game because it's fun to see insanely overpowered from time to time, then post their scores absentmindedly.
These scores can really mess with player morale sometimes. I get that there are way more important things to be considering right now, and I agree. Just...don't write it off as fine, either.
Fair. You are probably right.
I don't submit scores unless I have specific reason, so this isn't really something I can comment on from anything but a practical perspective. I thought it worth raising that concern, however.
Really, I can see no point to hacking either, given the Sim. and editor. The fun is either in watching vast destruction (editor/sim) or in matching wits against the mapmaker's fiendish plots. The former is more easily attained, and the latter is voided by hacking. The only way I can see that would make it rewarding is to send a "hack list" to V with fixes. And scoreboard-jumping... as I said, that's not for me to comment on. (Good stratagems to claim a high place with my (limited) level of skill, a sense of achievement at beating a difficult map, or proving a point are the only reasons I have found persuasive to date for score-submitting.)
I don't think I have the mindset of a score-hacker, somehow...
(http://i.imgur.com/U14kviy.png)
Im having second thoughs. It takes about 15 minutes AT LEAST to clear all the mire at the bottom of the map. and you need the other ships. Im not saying hes hacking, but im suspicious about the way he played my map
My proposal that busizhe is new name (in PF game) of ea3401 or AlterOld. ;)
Quote from: yum-forum on October 24, 2016, 07:07:09 PM
My proposal that busizhe is new name (in PF game) of ea3401 or AlterOld. ;)
I doubt it's AlterOld. He would have said something by now ;)
Well, it must be some hax, I noticed somewhere sub 3 minutes on map with like 8 strong emitters and next lowest time of 30min+. It's like his times boil down to just run around and lathe all the emitters - like there's no particles at all.
What I'd love is for the game to record (1) it's starting random number seed, (2) the exact time + location of every click. The result once compressed would not be a large file - I'd guess about 100kb tops. But it'd be enough to re-create your exact playthrough.
When you click "submit" then this recording should be submitted to the server.
I would LOVE to watch replays of how other people played. It'd be so much fun. And, as a side-bonus, it'd eliminate the problem of fake best times.
Quote from: ljw1004 on October 25, 2016, 11:32:57 AM
What I'd love is for the game to record (1) it's starting random number seed, (2) the exact time + location of every click. The result once compressed would not be a large file - I'd guess about 100kb tops. But it'd be enough to re-create your exact playthrough.
When you click "submit" then this recording should be submitted to the server.
I would LOVE to watch replays of how other people played. It'd be so much fun. And, as a side-bonus, it'd eliminate the problem of fake best times.
I'm sure that would be easily faked though :)
It has been considered for earlier CW games, but soon people will want to be able to reverse it, which cannot be easily done.
My issue, is that I've seen a few maps, that the times make no sense compared to the actual time it takes to lathe individual objects. It takes about 22.2 seconds to lathe something, and then there are enough objects to be lathed, that the time plus travel time from one point to another...it doesn't seem to make sense.
Yeah. I'd love to be wrong honestly. But...I'd need to see how it is accomplished.
Quote from: ShadeOfRed on October 29, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
My issue, is that I've seen a few maps, that the times make no sense compared to the actual time it takes to lathe individual objects. It takes about 22.2 seconds to lathe something, and then there are enough objects to be lathed, that the time plus travel time from one point to another...it doesn't seem to make sense.
Yeah. I'd love to be wrong honestly. But...I'd need to see how it is accomplished.
If you have multiple lathes, that time drops quickly. So, you have to take the lathe build time into account.
I was well pleased to find a legitimate way to actually beat busizhe's time on one particular map. Always fun to beat a cheater.
Edit: Sorry to bump a mildly old and controversial thread, I've just always seen busizhe times and they always annoyed me, then I finally beat one so I wanted to see if there was mention of him at all on the forums. It's nice to know that he isn't just a phantom haunting my game specifically, as last time I checked there was no mention of him at all.
Probaly true, maybe busizhe's a hacker.
Those times however, are only 2 to 4 minutes faster than the next score. That's not proof. On other maps, its more pronounced (~15 minutes better).
If he was a hacker, why not go all the way and have ~10 seconds completion times, akin to CW3? I assume he found some technical bug which allows lathing right off the bat and just didn't report it.
Quote from: strigvir on November 21, 2016, 11:02:13 PM
If he was a hacker, why not go all the way and have ~10 seconds completion times, akin to CW3? I assume he found some technical bug which allows lathing right off the bat and just didn't report it.
I was thinking it was something of the sort. Or maybe he found a way to disable particulate production, so he's uncontested. Although, it must be said, bug exploitation is cheating isn't it?
Scores are meaningful iff we all play by the same rulebook.
Custom fleets stretch this, but it's still a level (though expansive) field. Custom modules (if allowed in custom fleets) will break it entirely.
So a bug may or may not be cheating, but using it invalidates the score for the purposes of comparison.
Though I cannot say for sure whether or not he's a hacker or if he's exploiting a bug or whatever, but through searching my own maps' scores (several do have him completing incredibly fast) I found a score from him on my map Siege that seems quite reasonable.
Map 353 is a good one to look at. I have tested a number of maps and his times are generaly what is needed to collect all pick ups and take out the emitters without any particles.
What is strange though is that his early times were very normal. If I did 10 mins he would do 15-20 then over night he started posting 4-6 mins to my 10.
I just wish he would post a video like Alter Old when accused of cheating, it would be incredible if Busizhe stepped up and showed us who's boss!
Map 451 - I don't think it's possible to get this map completed in 0:48.
Also, map 444 - the ultimate ship factory. Only 5 people completed the map. Hardest map ever. busizhe logged a (literally) unbelievable score on that one. There's no chance that's legit.
I'd propose a cron job:
delete from scores where player_name = 'busizhe';
The first rule of PF is we don't talk about Busizhe. The second rule of PF is we don't tal....
The Busizhe times annoy me to an irrational level to the point that I went back to CW3, Joao's map was too good not to come back! The times are so blatantly cheated, it should now be seen as important enough to warrant blocking. As a speed player the Busizhe times make a mockery of the game for me.
Quote from: D0m0nik on December 23, 2016, 04:38:40 PM
The first rule of PF is we don't talk about Busizhe. The second rule of PF is we don't tal....
The Busizhe times annoy me to an irrational level to the point that I went back to CW3, Joao's map was too good not to come back! The times are so blatantly cheated, it should now be seen as important enough to warrant blocking. As a speed player the Busizhe times make a mockery of the game for me.
As much as I want to be all forgiving and nice and high-roady, the fact remains that I'm about as upset at this guy's antics as you are. It just hits on a whole new level when you've ever been on the top end of the scoreboard yourself. I'd have let it slide if he'd plopped down a few scores and then left, but he's consistently playing what seems like every Exchange map and getting a score that feels like he plays the game without particles or ships spawning. If my vote counts for anything, then I'd say he's earned himself a swift kick in the scores.
No. I analyzed (I am a scientist) his results in all my more than 50 maps and understand that he is not hacker but very clever! :)
Your maps, you are the authority on. But #444?
Quote from: GoodMorning on December 23, 2016, 05:58:23 PM
Your maps, you are the authority on. But #444?
I am gave up in this game... Non-logically CRAZY HARD game! Even in sandbox mode with my fleet it was impossible to survive! :-\
Quote from: Relli on December 23, 2016, 04:46:50 PM
[...] feels like he plays the game without particles or ships spawning. [...]
This is exactly what it seems to be. But how is he able to do it? This is a major problem that V needs to find out more about. Is there a nasty exploit that V hasn't found yet? I wish we could address Busizhe somehow.
Quote from: Sorrontis on December 23, 2016, 07:47:49 PM
I wish we could address Busizhe somehow.
And you could... I leave details up to you... a mapmaker. :)
Fair enough. I guess my next map will be named for that gentleman.
Mention him in the map title, and put a note to him in the description letting him know his presence is requested in the forums. Perhaps include a link to this thread?
Good idea.
I was more thinking along the lines of a clever PRPL script...
I can do evil things with this. Perhaps a ship which is easily (nay, necessarily) killed by particles, but if it were to survive longer than is legitimately possible, would cause the mission clock to advance by 2h and recommend a visit to the forum, or go to 0 (proving hacking)?
Love the idea of using coding and map making to prove legitamacy, very clever. If you come up with something I would be happy to test it from every angle.
I can't guarantee a good map, and I refuse to make a bad one, especially to prove this point.
However, if Sorrontis or D0m0nik create something where, say:
Evil Plan
HQ in particle trap, with a choice of Emitters, Spawners or <something?> to lathe. After a short time, the trap is filled with particles.
At this point, the HQ is unavoidably killed, the trap vanishes, and play resumes in a normal way.
If the HQ lasts more than (say) two minutes, the time is "adjusted".
Suggested inclusion:
CW3-style shield script (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=22342.msg152692#msg152692)
I don't want to come off creepy and I'm not trying to start a witchhunt, but I googled for busizhe and found that he has an account on at least two websites dedicated to "cheats and mods" for newly released video games. That additional evidence makes me unwilling to consider that he's just super skilled. I think making a map to trap him is a complete waste of time. The only option is we try to ignore his scores or to convince Virgil to delete his scores. As Domonik said above, he's making a mockery of the game.
Still, a trap map (Call it "Trap", why not...) will pay off for ever, in terms of catching cheats.
I agree with you, but the only satisfaction I can see in highscores is to know that you beat the other players, and cheating obviates that.
Quote from: stdout on December 24, 2016, 08:45:39 AM
I don't want to come off creepy and I'm not trying to start a witchhunt, but I googled for busizhe and found that he has an account on at least two websites dedicated to "cheats and mods" for newly released video games. That additional evidence makes me unwilling to consider that he's just super skilled. I think making a map to trap him is a complete waste of time. The only option is we try to ignore his scores or to convince Virgil to delete his scores. As Domonik said above, he's making a mockery of the game.
That clears out a lot, he probably freezes the value for maximum of particles on the map with CE and him using the same nickname as in-game and on cheat forums means he isn't very smart, hence variable times between maps.
Maybe someone should try using CE to see what we can do with it in PF.
Also:
Quote from: stdout on December 24, 2016, 08:45:39 AM
I don't want to come off creepy and I'm not trying to start a witchhunt, but I googled for busizhe and found that he has an account on at least two websites dedicated to "cheats and mods" for newly released video games. That additional evidence makes me unwilling to consider that he's just super skilled. I think making a map to trap him is a complete waste of time. The only option is we try to ignore his scores or to convince Virgil to delete his scores. As Domonik said above, he's making a mockery of the game.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Having used CE at one point in his life (2014), does not mean he still uses it. There's plenty of websites that I'm on that I no longer use; some that put the Sorrontis name to shame...
Well, at this point I think we should drop the subject and let Virgil do what he's going to do. Suggesting a thread lock.
Seconded.