Knuckle Cracker

I thought it would be nice to have an overview of all CW2 unit data:

Liberation Ship	Amount	# Upgrades	Upgrade Effect
Health	20	0	-
Heal rate	0.09/sec	0	-
Energy generation	1.0	5	+10%
Energy storage	20	5	+40
Ore storage	20	10	+100
Packet speed	5 cells/sec	5	+1.25 cells/sec
Movement speed	1.25 cells/sec	0	-
Beacon range	12.5	0	-

System	Cost / -20%	Function	Energy per sec	Health	Heal rate	Amount of upgrades	Upgrade Effect
Reactor	5 / 4	0.15 energy/sec	0	0	-	5	+10% energy
Ore Rig	10 / 8	1 ore/sec	0.06	0	-	5	+10% ore
Beacon	15 / 12	power area (radius 9.5)	0.06	0	-	3	+2 cells radius
Tech Dome	10(+5) / 8(+4)	0.021 technyte/sec	0.06	0	-	3	+10% technytes
Shield	5 / 4	block creeper	0	75	0.03/sec	0	-
Microrift	50 / 40	instant transport	0	0	-	0	-

Weapon	Cost / -20%	Ammo capacity	Energy per shot	Health	Heal rate	Max. damage per shot
Blaster	25 / 20	8	0.2	5	0.09/sec	184,000
Maker	50 / 40	-	0	5	0.09/sec	120,000
Nullifier	50 / 40	-	0	0	-	1 health/emitter
Launcher	50 / 40	12	3	5	0.09/sec	11,500,000
Repulsor	20 / 16	15	0.05/cell/sec	5	0.09/sec	-
Phantom Coil	5 / 4	10	2.4/sec	0.5	0.09/sec	0.6/sec/phantom

Experimental	Cost / -20%	Ammo capacity	Energy usage	Health	Heal rate	Max. damage
Conversion Bomb	80 / 64	-	-	10	0.09/sec	creeper in range x 2
Dark Beam	100 / 80	100	12/sec	0.5	0.09/sec	creeper in range
Dark Mirror	5 / 4	-	-	2	0.09/sec	-

Weapon & Exp. upgrades	Fire rate (shots/sec) 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Fire range (cells) 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Move speed (cells/sec) 0 / 1 / 2 / 3
Blaster	3 / 3.75 / 5 / 7.5	3 / 4 / 5 / 6	1.25 / 1.56 / 1.88 / 2.19
Maker	1 / 1.2 / 1.5 / 2	7.5M / 15M / 30M / 60M*	0.63 / 0.78 / 0.94 / 1.09
Nullifier	1 time use	2 / same	-
Launcher	0.33 / 0.38 / 0.43 / 0.5	5 / 6 / 7 / 8	0.94 / 1.17 / 1.41 / 1.64
Repulsor	continuous	3-6-9 / same	1.25 / 1.56 / 1.88 / 2.19
Phantom Coil	continuous	5 / 6 / 7 / 8	0.94 / 1.17 / 1.41 / 1.64
Conversion Bomb	1 time use	2 / same	0.50 / 0.63 / 0.75 / 0.88
Dark Beam	continuous	unlimited	-
Dark Mirror	-	-	2.50 / 3.13 / 3.75 / 4.38

* For makers the fire range upgrade increases the burst tank capacity.

From the above tables the following information can be deducted:

Number of fire rate upgrades	Max. damage/sec 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Max. energy usage/sec 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Max. damage / unit of energy 0 / 1 / 2 / 3
Blaster	552,000 / 690,000 / 920,000 / 1,380,000	0.6 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.5	920,000
Maker	120,000 / 144,000 / 180,000 / 240,000	0.24 / 0.29 / 0.36 / 0.48*	500,000**
Launcher	3,833,333 / 4,312,500 / 4,928,571 / 5,750,000	1 / 1.13 / 1.29 / 1.5	3,833,333

* This is without taking the +10% ore rig efficiency upgrades into account. The energy usage is the usage by the amount of rigs needed for max. output.
** With all 5 ore rig efficiency upgrades the max. maker damage per unit of energy is 750,000.

Add health data?

Quote from: UpperKEES on March 09, 2011, 09:34:50 PM
I thought it would be nice to have an overview of all unit data. Maybe Virgil can provide some more info, but we can also fill in the blanks by ourselves, so please post if you found some interesting data and I will update the tables. Later on I will mark data green when it has been verified or when the info was supplied by Virgil.

Assault Ship	Capacity	# Upgrades	Upgrade Effect
Energy storage	20	5	+40
Ore storage	20	5	+40
Packet speed	? subcells/sec	5	+? subcells/sec

System	Cost / -20%	Function	Energy usage	Health	# Upgrades	Upgrade Effect
Reactor	5 / 4	1 energy/sec	0	0	5	+10% energy
Ore Rig	20 / 16	1 ore/sec	1 per 500 frames	0	5	+10% ore
Beacon	15 / 12	power area (radius 10)	1 per 500 frames	0	3	+2 radius
Tech Dome	5 / 4	0.009 technyte/sec	1 per 1000 frames	0	3	+5% technytes
Shield	5 / 4	block creeper	0	75	0	-
Microrift	50 / 40	instant transport	?	0	0	-

Weapon	Cost / -20%	Energy/shot	Max. damage/shot	Firing delay in frames 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Fire range 0 / 1 / 2 / 3	Move speed 0 / 1 / 2 / 3
Blaster	25 / 20	~.2	84000/subcell
Maker	50 / 40	20000/ore	N/A	N/A	N/A
Nullifier	50 / 40	0	"Infinity"	N/A	3	N/A
Launcher	50 / 40	3	250000/subcell	90 / 81 / 72 (?) / 63 (?)	6 / 7 / 8 (?) / 9 (?)
Repulsor	30 / 24
Phantom Coil	5 / 4

Quote from: Karsten75 on March 09, 2011, 09:39:30 PM
Add health data?

Thanks, indeed forgot that for the weapons.

@mthw2vc:
Thanks! :)
- I'd like the firing rate in shots per second, so I'll have to convert your data. I found (just by timing) 3 shots/sec for a blaster and 1 shot per 3 sec for a laucher (with 0 upgrades). For the blaster we seem to have quite different data....
- Is the 75 shield health the old or the new value?
- Is the maker damage at 1x or at 4x?

Packet speed starts at 4 pixels per second.  Each tech upgrade adds 1 pixel per second.

The fire interval for a blaster is 10 frames.  For a launcher it is 90 frames.  Each fire speed tech upgrade decreasse the fire interval by 2 frames per blaster and 10 frame per launcher.

It doesn't appear to me that packets are traveling 4 pixels every second... Those must be really big pixels! :P

Thanks Virgil, that really helps! :)

Mthw2vc, aren't the blaster & launcher damage totals done to a maximum of 49 (7x7) subcells? See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6289.msg35465#msg35465).

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 09, 2011, 10:18:52 PM
It doesn't appear to me that packets are traveling 4 pixels every second... Those must be really big pixels! :P

A subcell is 8x8 native pixels (see same link), so these are larger when you enlarge your window I guess.

Edit: hmmm, after testing it seems to take 6 seconds for a packet to travel 10 cells (= 240 pixels) at default speed. That would be 40 pixels per second. Could that be right? Or 4 pixels per 3 frames?

Quote from: UpperKEES on March 09, 2011, 10:20:51 PM
Thanks Virgil, that really helps! :)

mthw2vc, aren't the blaster & launcher damage totals done to a maximum of 49 (7x7) subcells? See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6289.msg35465#msg35465).

50 if it hits the center subcell twice. I originally thought they caused twice as much damage because I was only meausuring one subcell.

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 09, 2011, 10:25:27 PM
50 if it hits the center subcell twice. I originally thought they caused twice as much damage because I was only meausuring one subcell.

Okay, so that's similar to CW1. But the numbers are still totals, right? 4000 for a blaster and 250000 for a launcher.

4000 and 250000 per subcell, so 200K and 12.5M total, given ideal circumstances.

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 09, 2011, 10:18:52 PM
It doesn't appear to me that packets are traveling 4 pixels every second... Those must be really big pixels! :P

Uh hmm... Yes  big pixels indeed :)

That should be 4 per frame (or 120 native pixels per second).  Which would be 5 cells per second.

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 09, 2011, 10:37:41 PM
4000 and 250000 per subcell, so 200K and 12.5M total, given ideal circumstances.

Wow, that's a lot! :o

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 10:43:34 PM
That should be 4 per frame (or 120 native pixels per second).  Which would be 5 cells per second.

Hmmm, I guess there's something wrong with my timing.... I'm glad you provide it! :)

I just looked at one line of code (that had a 4 on it:) )  It might do to double check by pausing the game right when the clock ticks.  Then build something 25 cells away (in a straight line, on the same row), and see if it takes 5 seconds for a packet to get there.

No, you are right. It's just getting late here.... ;)

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
I just looked at one line of code (that had a 4 on it:) )  It might do to double check by pausing the game right when the clock ticks.  Then build something 25 cells away (in a straight line, on the same row), and see if it takes 5 seconds for a packet to get there.

Map. editor. now. please.

In time.... :)
I almost hate to show anyone the editor.  It is so packed with stuff... and I'm not even done yet.

Is it correct that a blaster holds 8 ammo packets and fires 39 times with that? It seems like there's still a little ammo left in the blaster, but apparently not enough for 1 shot. Or is there another reason why this last shot isn't fired? (I tested this by cutting off the power.)

It holds 8 ammo and each shot drains 0.2.
I'll have to look at why this isn't 40 clean shots.  I bet it has to do with floating point error and the last amount of ammo is actually .19999999... But I'll take a look.

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 11:03:25 PM
In time.... :)
I almost hate to show anyone the editor.  It is so packed with stuff... and I'm not even done yet.

Basically, we could almost make a whole new game based on creeper with it?

Quote from: Blaze on March 10, 2011, 12:03:58 AM
Basically, we could almost make a whole new game based on creeper with it?

Yep, and it's called Creeper World Redemption. ;)

For more elaboration about the map editor please create a new topic. I like this thread to be dedicated for unit data only.

Do reactors really give 1 energy/second, I always thought it was only 0.2.

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 11:21:41 PM
It holds 8 ammo and each shot drains 0.2.
I'll have to look at why this isn't 40 clean shots.  I bet it has to do with floating point error and the last amount of ammo is actually .19999999... But I'll take a look.

My bet is the typical typo of using > instead of >= ;)

Quote from: Karsten75 on March 09, 2011, 10:58:59 PM

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 10:56:19 PM
I just looked at one line of code (that had a 4 on it:) )  It might do to double check by pausing the game right when the clock ticks.  Then build something 25 cells away (in a straight line, on the same row), and see if it takes 5 seconds for a packet to get there.

Map. editor. now. please.

Quote from: virgilw on March 09, 2011, 11:03:25 PM
In time.... :)
I almost hate to show anyone the editor.  It is so packed with stuff... and I'm not even done yet.

I'd like to see the editor, but I guess virgil has to get it perfect before he shows us

Add LS data?

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 10, 2011, 08:13:55 AM
Add LS data?

Like? Oh, I forgot movement speed and beacon range for the LS/AS; added.

Upgrading beacon range does not affect AS range.

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 10, 2011, 08:36:47 AM
Upgrading beacon range does not affect AS range.

Oh, do you think it should?

In CW1 the unit movement speed upgrade was also applied to OC. Is this similar in CW2?

i dont think beacon range upgrade should affect the AS, it's called beacon for a reason :P

Quote from: Aurzel on March 10, 2011, 10:20:05 AM
i dont think beacon range upgrade should affect the AS, it's called beacon for a reason :P

True, but apparently the AS has an onboard beacon. The +10% reactor efficiency also affects the energy generated by the AS, so that's rather similar. Not sure yet about the movement speed like I said....

Quote from: mthw2vc on March 09, 2011, 10:25:27 PM
50 if it hits the center subcell twice. I originally thought they caused twice as much damage because I was only meausuring one subcell.

The center cell is indeed hit twice, but the four corner cells aren't hit, which makes the total damage per shot 46 x 4000 = 184,000.

For launchers it works exactly the same way, so their max. damage per shot is 46 x 250000 = 11,500,000.

More info about movement speed (and related upgrades):

Unit	Default speed (pixels per frame)	Increase per upgrade
AS	1.00	+0.0000
blaster, repulsor	1.00	+0.2500
launcher, phantom coil	0.75	+0.1875
maker	0.50	+0.1250
conversion bomb	0.40	+0.1000
dark mirror	2.00	+0.5000

For the main overview (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6373.msg36036#msg36036) I will convert the pixels/frame into cells/second (1 p/f = 1.25 c/s).

I have updated the main overview and above table with the latest movement speed data.

I also added a table to the main overview for the experimentals, updated the tech dome, repulsor and phantom coil specs and added heal rate info.

I will adjust the reactor specs when a final decision has been made about their costs and efficiency.

Adjusted specs for: reactor, tech dome, ore rig, maker and conversion bomb in the unit data overview (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6373.msg36036#msg36036).

never knew C.bombs could move

Quote from: thepenguin on March 17, 2011, 06:25:32 PM
never knew C.bombs could move

It actually makes the movement speed upgrade a lot more useful, because you'll be able to reach much denser Creeper with it.

Adjusted beacon range (+ 0.5) and latest tech dome specs.

Adjusted tech domes specs again and removed the build limit column for the 'Systems' table.

Could this one be stickied in the CW2 Gameplay Section please?

Kees -
Good stuff.
Thanks for starting this (now pinned) thread.
dbit

You're welcome. :)

Maybe not everything will make sense at first glance, but it will later on, so you can use some of the data to your advantage when making decisions (or creating customs maps). I know I do....  8)

Makers - What would make it stop producing? I was in those final tunnels for Day 13 and it quit 'making'.
I had plenty of energy to make more units - if needed.
Trying again.
dbit

Makers stop if they run out of ore reserves.

Quote from: Grauniad on May 16, 2011, 01:52:33 PM
Makers stop if they run out of ore reserves.

Ahah!
Which on Day 13 means you need to control it pretty tightly.
OK - thanks.
dbit

I got a thread notification that this topic has been split:

"A topic you are watching has been split into two or more topics by Grauniad.

View what remains of this topic at: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6373.new;topicseen#new"

Where is the new thread?
dbit

Quote from: DethbyIT on May 18, 2011, 06:05:59 AM
I got a thread notification that this topic has been split:

"A topic you are watching has been split into two or more topics by Grauniad.

View what remains of this topic at: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6373.new;topicseen#new"

Where is the new thread?
dbit

Chalk it up to ham-handedness. I messed up the split and had to do a bit more work to clean up nicely. The split-off thread is here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6931.0).

LOL!
I felt like I was a 2nd LT again (map+compass=lost).
Thanks,
dbit

Nullifier damage could do more damage than 1 emitter health. It could do 1 emitter/gate health to all emitters/gates in range

Rephrased it.

How much damage per adjacent cell of creeper do shields take?

I think 0.06 per frame (just from empirical testing), which means a shield touched by 1 side will last for 75 / 0.06 = 1250 frames = 41.67 seconds.

Well, the calculation sounds like per side rather than per cell, though it would be nearly impossible to calculate it per cell without fields available in the right spot.
Question about extractor upgrade, Does it give you more ore per ore in the deposit, and do makers then produce more creeper per ore?

Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 06, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
Well, the calculation sounds like per side rather than per cell, though it would be nearly impossible to calculate it per cell without fields available in the right spot.

Actually, a cell is a whole side, consisting of 9 subcells ;)

Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 06, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
Question about extractor upgrade, Does it give you more ore per ore in the deposit, and do makers then produce more creeper per ore?

The former. Think of it this way: an ore rig normally digs up 10 ore in X seconds. After applying the upgrade, each rig will deplete the deposit by the same 10 ore in those same X seconds, but 11 ore will be added to your storage. In other words, you get 10% more ore and get it 10% faster for each upgrade you apply.

mthw2vc beat me in posting, but anyway:

Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 06, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
Well, the calculation sounds like per side rather than per cell, though it would be nearly impossible to calculate it per cell without fields available in the right spot.

Yep, that's why I used the word 'side' ;) Not sure what you mean by 'cell' (1 cell consists out of 9 subcells). As far as I know 1 side is considered being touched when at least one adjacent subcell contains Creeper in a particular frame. Unlike for wall elements in CW1 diagonal cells are not taken into account. Also not sure what fields have to do with it....

Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 06, 2011, 06:05:20 PM
Question about extractor upgrade, Does it give you more ore per ore in the deposit, and do makers then produce more creeper per ore?

The ore rig upgrade makes the rigs 10% more efficient. This means that 10% more ore is extracted from the same deposit. Additional upgrades do not influence each other, but are added to form a multiplier (so 3 upgrades make a 1.3 multiplier). The production of the makers is not affected.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 06, 2011, 06:32:42 PM
Yep, that's why I used the word 'side' ;) Not sure what you mean by 'cell' (1 cell consists out of 9 subcells). As far as I know 1 side is considered being touched when at least one adjacent subcell contains Creeper in a particular frame. Unlike for wall elements in CW1 diagonal cells are not taken into account. Also not sure what fields have to do with it....

I'm pretty sure it's considered by each of the 12 subcells next to the wall rather than by sides - you'll note that the shields at say the start of day 17 will last quite a lot longer than a shield with a full side of it next to creeper. One other interesting thing about shields - if they're next to a field of creeper that does not move, they will take damage, but you can deactivate them to stop taking damage and they won't die because the creeper won't move under it.

This is what sticked to my mind:

Quote from: virgilw on 23 March 2011, 22:05:35
Damage is boolean... a unit either takes damage or it doesn't.  So more subcells with creeper does not increase damage.

But:

Quote from: virgilw on 30 March 2011, 20:07:54
Right now, the creeper calculation looks to see if there is a shield in any adjacent cell.  If so, it will damage this shield.  When a shield is in the construction phase, it doesn't show up to the creeper calculation (since the creeper calculation would also not move creeper into a subcell covered by a shield).

So the damage determination for shields is done during the creeper calculation and because this creeper calculation is performed per subcell you could very well be right that the amount of subcells adjacent to a shield indeed does influence the amount of damage.

Could the shield damage data be added? Both for how quickly creeper decays it, but also for how much damage a shield takes per drone health.

Yeah, I'll update the overview when the next update has been released. :)

anybody know the exact (frames) length of time it takes a CB from pushing detonate to the actual conversion?

Some additional information that might be helpful.

Weapon  Max Damage/s Max Energy Use/s

Blaster 552000/690000/920000/1380000 .6/.75/1/1.5

Launcher 3795000/4370000/4945000/5750000 1/1.14/1.29/1.5

Could you update this overview to make it up-to-date, and add some extra info?

Mainly I'd like to know:
-How fast does a maker "fire" after fire rate upgrades?
-What is the strength of an repulsor? Is this affected by the fire rate upgrades?
-What is the fire strength of the dark beam against drones?
-How much damages does an X hp drone against shields/Liberation ship? And how much damage does an other unit to that drone?
-What is the hp (de)regeneration rate of drones when touching (anti)creeper?
-Correct Ore storage upgrade effect and #upgrades
-Could you change "Max. damage per shot" to ...K?
-How much creeper does a phantom contain (or does this vary)?



Owh wait, I should start this post with "Wow, what a great and useful overview, thank you very much", because it has helped me a few times already (dark beam energy usage, for example). Oh, and just checking to be absolutely sure: Does energy usage of reactor, beacon or tech dome increase when upgrading?

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
Could you update this overview to make it up-to-date, and add some extra info?

Yeah, I will soon, but just haven't had the time to do so....

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-How fast does a maker "fire" after fire rate upgrades?

0 - once every 30 frames (= 1 sec)
1 - once every 25 frames (= 0.83 sec)
2 - once every 20 frames (= 0.67 sec)
3 - once every 15 frames (= 0.5 sec)

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-What is the strength of an repulsor? Is this affected by the fire rate upgrades?

Nope. See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6555.0) for more info.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-What is the fire strength of the dark beam against drones?

Instant kill.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-How much damages does an X hp drone against shields/Liberation ship? And how much damage does an other unit to that drone?

Quote from: virgilwDefault drones have a health of 4.  This means ideally that 4 blaster shots are required to take them out.  They heal, though, so it can be often be 5.  When drone hits something it takes 4 points of damage and doles out 4 points of damage, per frame.  For most structures, this destroys them in one frame and leave the enhanced drones still alive and able to carry along their path of destruction.

I noticed however that 5+ HP drones seem to do twice the amount of damage to the LS, which I think is a bug.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-What is the hp (de)regeneration rate of drones when touching (anti)creeper?

No regeneration when touching anti-Creeper.
0.09/sec in any other case.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-How much creeper does a phantom contain (or does this vary)?

Default is 50000, but this can vary. Unfortunately you aren't able to see this on your display.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
Does energy usage of reactor, beacon or tech dome increase when upgrading?

Reactors don't use energy and beacon/tech dome usage isn't affected by any upgrade.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
Wow, what a great and useful overview, thank you very much

You're welcome. :)

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 26, 2011, 12:11:08 PM

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-What is the fire strength of the dark beam against drones?

Instant kill.

No, this was changed before release. They now cause a finite, albeit large amount of damage to a drone in a given unit of time.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 26, 2011, 12:11:08 PM

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-How much damages does an X hp drone against shields/Liberation ship? And how much damage does an other unit to that drone?

Quote from: virgilwDefault drones have a health of 4.  This means ideally that 4 blaster shots are required to take them out.  They heal, though, so it can be often be 5.  When drone hits something it takes 4 points of damage and doles out 4 points of damage, per frame.  For most structures, this destroys them in one frame and leave the enhanced drones still alive and able to carry along their path of destruction.

I noticed however that 5+ HP drones seem to do twice the amount of damage to the LS, which I think is a bug.

This is not a bug. Every frame a drone is above a structure, the drone takes 4 damage and causes 5 damage to all structures present (25 for shields). As such, a drone with 4.01 health will survive the first frame with 0.01 health and cause damage a second time.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 26, 2011, 12:11:08 PM

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 10:07:59 AM
-What is the hp (de)regeneration rate of drones when touching (anti)creeper?

No regeneration when touching anti-Creeper.
0.09/sec in any other case.

Not the intended question. Drones take damage over time when immersed in anti-creeper. Fast-moving drones also slow down. It would be useful to have data about both of these phenomena.

Quote from: mthw2vc on June 26, 2011, 12:18:03 PM
They now cause a finite, albeit large amount of damage to a drone in a given unit of time.

I just tested it and it seems like a DB does 5 HP of damage per frame (150 per second).

Quote from: mthw2vc on June 26, 2011, 12:18:03 PM
This is not a bug. Every frame a drone is above a structure, the drone takes 4 damage and causes 5 damage to all structures present (25 for shields). As such, a drone with 4.01 health will survive the first frame with 0.01 health and cause damage a second time.

Well, the drones certainly don't behave like Virgil described, but let's discuss this in the beta board.

Quote from: mthw2vc on June 26, 2011, 12:18:03 PM
Not the intended question. Drones take damage over time when immersed in anti-creeper. Fast-moving drones also slow down. It would be useful to have data about both of these phenomena.

Hmmm, I thought florrat asked about regeneration as well. There's indeed no data about the damage done by anti-Creeper nor the slow down rate, but I guess we'll find that soon.

Please note that this is a unit overview and doesn't contain all game mechanics info (and I don't intend to include it).

With some quick tests it seems like drones lose 1 speed (the default speed for the normal 4 health drones) every 3 seconds to a minimum of 1 speed (or rather, it stops decreasing at 1 speed - but because of the interval it decreases at some speeds they can slow down to slightly less than 1 speed), and drones lose roughly .6 health per second while in anti-creeper. I didn't test it very meticulously however so these aren't necessarily correct, but they seem at least decently accurate.

Thank you for all the answers and the link to the repulsor thread.

About the drone damage: Thanks for explaining: So a normal structure deals 4 damage to a drone, and a shield at full health will deal 16 damage to a strong drone (since it regenerated a bit in the meantime), right?

The question about drones health regeneration and degeneration was intended to be both questions in one :) So it heals 0.09/sec when not touching anti-creeper, and gets ±0.6/sec damage when touching anti-creeper. Interesting that fast drones also move slower in anti-creeper.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 26, 2011, 12:40:49 PM
[...] but let's discuss this in the beta board.

Awww :(

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 26, 2011, 12:40:49 PM
Please note that this is a unit overview and doesn't contain all game mechanics info (and I don't intend to include it).

Okay, maybe this indeed wasn't the best place to ask, but I'm glad you still answered.

Quote from: florrat on June 26, 2011, 02:00:22 PM
About the drone damage: Thanks for explaining: So a normal structure deals 4 damage to a drone, and a shield at full health will deal 16 damage to a strong drone (since it regenerated a bit in the meantime), right?

No, there is a very slight bias that means the shield only causes 12 damage to the drone.

Sorry it took a while, but I have finally updated the unit overview (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6373.msg36036#msg36036) with the latest data:

- Adjusted the amount of ore storage upgrades and their value.
- Adjusted the maker data to take fire rate and fire range upgrades into account.
- Added a new table with max. damage per second, max. energy usage per second, max. damage per unit of energy.

Please let me know if I forgot/overlooked something.

20000 is for the amount needed to fill a maker with 60 M of AC right? just wondering cause it's the only weapon which does use energy, and there isn't really a "set" mark for the amount of ore per shot of creeper (.1 charge or x1 production)

1 ore = 30 000 AC (although you may see different amounts when charging due to floating point errors..?)

As such, you are off by an order of magnitude- 2000 is the amount of ore needed.

PS: KEES, now that I look again, there are multiple errors in the tables... I'll post back later with the needed corrections.

i'm trying to figure out the ammount of makers fully upgraded producing under the x4 setting i'd need to completely counter the creeper production of an emitter (so that the creeper/anti creeper destruction creates a stable creeper coverage and density) strength 201k interval 0.03s my ore is praticly infiniate as there is a maker sitting atop an anti creeper emitter vacuming in another part of the map

50 + 1 more set only to 1x production, assuming the weapon fire rate upgrade to be untouched.

so one maker set to 4x should in time beat a 100k .5s on it's own? (assuming enough ore) (all 9 weapon upgrades gotten)

If you have all weapon upgrades, a single maker at 4x will match the output of a 120k/0.5s emitter, so yes, it would overpower a 100k/0.5s emitter given enough time.

Quote from: mthw2vc on December 19, 2011, 11:17:24 PM
KEES, now that I look again, there are multiple errors in the tables... I'll post back later with the needed corrections.

Although it's been more than a year ago, I'm still willing to make corrections if you point them out to me. :)

Corrections done, you are back  ;D

Quote from: MadMag on January 25, 2013, 07:11:21 PM
Corrections done, you are back  ;D

I sure am. 8)

Can anyone explain weapon damage? I was trying this using experiment. I put a total of 20K creeper in one CELL. It took 5 shots for the blaster to destroy it. (I wasn't using any fields.) In another Cell I put 1000k creeper (without fields). It took 4 missiles (launcher shots) to destroy it.
So, is the destruction power I assumed is correct? That is, 4K per shot of blaster or 12K-16K per second (without any upgrades), and 250K-300K per missile (without upgrades).

Thank You.

Quote from: Shubhamkar on February 15, 2013, 04:01:34 AM
... 250K-300K per missile ...

Interesting test. I got 278k (2500k/9) per missile, independent from creeper density >500k.

Quote from: Shubhamkar on February 15, 2013, 04:01:34 AM
Can anyone explain weapon damage? I was trying this using experiment. I put a total of 20K creeper in one CELL. It took 5 shots for the blaster to destroy it. (I wasn't using any fields.) In another Cell I put 1000k creeper (without fields). It took 4 missiles (launcher shots) to destroy it.
So, is the destruction power I assumed is correct? That is, 4K per shot of blaster or 12K-16K per second (without any upgrades), and 250K-300K per missile (without upgrades).

Thank You.

Weapons both don't only damage one cell, nor do they damage every subcell equally within the subcells it does damage. To start with, the data in this chart is creeper density in subcells (ie. 1 cell is a 3x3 block of subcells, if you have an entire cell with 500k creeper, there is actually 4.5M creeper in total).

In the case of launchers, it does 500K damage to the centre subcell that the launcher hits, and 250K damage to some area surrounding that subcell (it reaches more than 1 cell however). In the case of blasters, I'm not sure on the exact numbers but I think it's effectively the same thing just with a smaller area and smaller damage (and faster fire rate of course).


EDIT: In the case of launchers, this (if i remember correctly) is the damage it does:
_YYYYY_
YYYYYYY
YYYYYYY
YYYXYYY
YYYYYYY
YYYYYYY
_YYYYY_

X will be the centre of a cell that the launcher targets (despite the missile actually hitting a specific subcell, launchers always target cells still - presumably an efficiency concern), and takes 500K damage.
Y takes 250K damage.

Add it up and there are 44 Ys, 44*250K + 500K = 11.5M total damage (if it does optimal damage), which is what the table shows.

EDIT AGAIN: I made a  small mistake in what areas the launcher hit, fixed it.

Well explained. Blasters make the same pattern. Damage is 8k in the middle and 4k around.

Yep, that's how it works. This also explains why it's more efficient to not let your launcher fire in the corner of a chamber, even if that cell contains the highest density. The area of effect will be much smaller.

Quote from: Kithros on February 15, 2013, 08:32:51 AM

X will be the centre of a cell that the launcher targets (despite the missile actually hitting a specific subcell, launchers always target cells still - presumably an efficiency concern), and takes 500K damage.
Y takes 250K damage.

Add it up and there are 44 Ys, 44*250K + 500K = 11.5M total damage (if it does optimal damage), which is what the table shows.

EDIT AGAIN: I made a  small mistake in what areas the launcher hit, fixed it.

I think you are off with the total damage from a missile.  If I recall correctly, the missile does *maximum* 250K damage, with it "radiating" out from the central impact point if that cell does not have sufficient creeper. Regardless, they definitely do *not* do 11.5M damage per shot.

Edit: here is a response from Virgil during CW2 beta:

Quote from: virgilw on March 04, 2011, 11:04:27 AM
Taking on the question of launcher vs blaster:

Note:
The terminology I use for distance is Cell and Subcell.  A cell is 24x24 native pixels and a subcell is 8x8 native pixels.  A cell consists of 9 subcells.  Terrain always occupies cells.  Creeper and fields operate on a subcell basis.  Blasters fire at any subcells.  Launchers fire at the center subcell of cells.  Unit path finding is done from cell to cell with waypoints at the center of the cell.  Line of sight is done on a cell basis, with the exception of blasters which do subcell based LOS.

Now, that that's out of the way:
Blasters and Launchers both damage to a range of 4 subcells (3 on each side of the targeted subcell... for a total of 7 subcells wide).  When a blaster hits, it damages up to 4000 dense creeper.  When a missile from a launcher hits, it damages up to 250000 dense creeper.  So it is very true (like in CW1) that launchers are best deployed against a dense mass of creeper.  Attached is an image of missile damage the frame after it hit.  I have added the red subcell range indicator so you can see the range that is damaged. Also, just like in CW1, launchers target the deepest creeper in range and blasters target the closest.

Note that there is no explicit LOS done on creeper damage... however the limited range prevents damage on adjacent tunnels separated by terrain simply because the range isn't great enough.  However, think about what I said for Blaster targeting vs Launcher targeting and you well see that you can damage things around corners with blasters.

Launchers have one other great ability... they can target things around corners.  I use them quite often to target dense creeper near emitters even though my blasters aren't yet nearby.  For instance, you can sometimes dig a side tunnel next to a compressed creeper chamber, park a launcher there, then open a single terrain cell at the top of the chamber.  Your blasters (or shields, or repulsors) can hold the creeper back and your launchers can launch missiles back up the side tunnel, over, then down into the creeper abyss and finally reach their target creeper at the bottom of the chamber.  The only restriction on the missile is that it can never leave the firing range of the Launcher.

Quote from: Grauniad on February 15, 2013, 10:14:54 AM
I think you are off with the total damage from a missile.  If I recall correctly, the missile does *maximum* 250K damage, with it "radiating" out from the central impact point if that cell does not have sufficient creeper. Regardless, they definitely do *not* do 11.5M damage per shot.

Really, they do. The max. damage of 250K is per 'subcell' (as Virgil describes it). The center subcell takes twice that damage as Kithros described. Try it.

What Virgil means with 'up to', is that it may do less damage to each subcell if it does not contain that much Creeper. This is why I named it 'max. damage', as it is only done under ideal circumstances (high density, max. splash range).

Edit: I'm a bit surprised this data is being doubted 2 years after date. ;) See a post by mthw2vc on the first page in which he describes the damage done per subcell. Also, if only 250K damage would be done per missile, the launcher would be the weakest weapon by far in terms of damage per second and damage per unit of energy (see bottom table).

Quote from: Shubhamkar on February 15, 2013, 04:01:34 AM
Can anyone explain weapon damage? I was trying this using experiment. I put a total of 20K creeper in one CELL. It took 5 shots for the blaster to destroy it. (I wasn't using any fields.) In another Cell I put 1000k creeper (without fields). It took 4 missiles (launcher shots) to destroy it.
So, is the destruction power I assumed is correct? That is, 4K per shot of blaster or 12K-16K per second (without any upgrades), and 250K-300K per missile (without upgrades).

Thank You.

Ok, Thanks a lot. Actually before posting this, I mistook density as creeper. I conducted some experiments with fields. Now, it has become clear to me.