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Creeper World => Custom Map Discussion => Custom Map Comments => Topic started by: AutoPost on July 11, 2010, 05:05:26 PM

Title: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: AutoPost on July 11, 2010, 05:05:26 PM
This topic is for discussion of map: Nice Job 25: The Developer (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2586)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=2586) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2586)

Author: UpperKEES (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=UpperKEES)

Desc:
The last map in the Nice Job series and dedicated to a developer we all know: Virgil Wall.

Ever considered creating your own game? This map will take you through the six phases of the software development life cycle.

Probably the nicest job in the (creeper) world, but also one of the hardest.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Karsten75 on July 11, 2010, 05:17:33 PM
Wow, couldn't wait for that game to be over, could you? Commiserations.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 05:27:28 PM
Title:
Nice Job 25: The Developer
Difficulty:
Expert Only
Creeper type:
Land only
Remarks:
The last map in the Nice Job series and dedicated to a developer we all know: Virgil Wall.

Ever considered creating your own game? This map will take you through the six phases of the software development life cycle.

Probably the nicest job in the (creeper) world, but also one of the hardest.

Description:
*** This map is dedicated to Virgil Wall, the one and only developer of Creeper World and a very nice person. Many thanks for creating such a unique and great game! ***

After attempting 24 jobs you give it one more try. Because you always loved gaming, but weren't able to make money out of this (see NJ-17: The Gamer (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3556)), you decided to become a developer of computer games.

However developing games is not just coding and creating nice graphics. You'll have to go through the complete development life cycle. This map will show you how it works.

You will have to go through the following phases:
1. Analysis
2. Design
3. Implementation
4. Testing
5. Deployment
6. Maintenance

During each phase you will have to think about your customers/users/players. If you don't, your project is doomed. Also don't forget it's a development life cycle; when not executed correctly you're back at square one. Now, let's make a game!

Download page:
Nice Job 25: The Developer (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2586)
Full size screen shot:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=887;image)

More maps:
Apply here for another job ;) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.0)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 05:29:44 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on July 11, 2010, 05:17:33 PM
Wow, couldn't wait for that game to be over, could you? Commiserations.

I've seen better games to be honest. Of course there was a lot of tension and I hoped for a better result, but Spain deserved to win. Too bad, we lost 3 World Cup finals now.... :(

The good thing is that we still have CW! ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Link327 on July 11, 2010, 06:04:42 PM
I don't like it,because I can't make the first sep there. The creeper has destroyed the reactors and I couldn't do anything out of looking.
And you can't build a blaster at the position of the reactor,so you can't defend yourself.
How making this?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 06:24:35 PM
Spoiler
If the creeper has destroyed the reactors you waited too long with building a blaster, so I suggest you do this a little sooner. ;)
[close]

Don't forget this is an Expert Only map; solutions are not always obvious. If you still need help after a couple of tries, please let me know.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Link327 on July 11, 2010, 06:36:06 PM
I've built a blaster,but it had not enough range to attack the creepers that is destroying the reactors.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 06:40:08 PM
Spoiler
So you might want to move it.... or build a second one. :)
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: F0R on July 11, 2010, 06:55:47 PM
i built 2 blasters you have to air juggle one
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
That's a possibility, but I didn't juggle anything.

Spoiler
I just built everything in the appropriate order. Of course a blaster can be temporarily disconnected from the network, but that won't be news to experts.... ;)
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: F0R on July 11, 2010, 08:03:51 PM
i build a blaster where the artifact is
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 08:05:30 PM
That's a good start. But then? (I won't give it all away from the start, but I will help out with specific questions.)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
This is quite the puzzle. Got to 7 minutes and lost a pod after a few restarts. Very nice map  :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 10:22:51 PM
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
This is quite the puzzle.

Yeah, I tried to combine almost every aspect of the game into 1 map. A puzzle element, energy management, lay-out planning, blaster assaults, pod rescues, etc.

No bridging required however for people who wonder (as for all of my maps).

The only thing I couldn't include were mortars, because it would be too easy to influence other sections (phases) with them, as they are able to shoot over the crazonium walls.

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
Got to 7 minutes

That's half way! :) The first section will definitely take most of your time (because of the energy build up). The implementation phase might also be a bit tough.

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
lost a pod after a few restarts.

Yep, you have to keep an eye on them. You have a certain margin, but better hoover that mouse pointer over the creeper levels in section 5 occasionally....

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
Very nice map  :)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: snowmaker (JM) on July 11, 2010, 10:56:54 PM
Thought I would put up my first score even though it was poor. I forgot to connect the top right totem in the second section... ugh... and had to wait for that. Maybe one of these days I will be more patient with my energy production  ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 11:01:25 PM
Poor? Your time is not bad at all for a first attempt. I think it took me longer while testing....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Fisherck on July 11, 2010, 11:41:32 PM
I was wondering what you chose for the first upgrade%
I originally went with the 10% more power, then switched to 20% faster building, and am currently using 15% faster fire rate. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 11, 2010, 11:59:04 PM
Spoiler
I didn't pick any of these 3.... ;)
[close]

Although it will certainly influence the time it takes to complete the map, I don't think the choice of your first upgrade will make a difference in whether you succeed in the first section. (Without picking an upgrade at all it should also be possible, only a tiny bit harder.)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Katra on July 12, 2010, 12:56:04 AM
So far the upgrade I picked hasn't made a noticeable difference. (build faster or costs less to build) Best I've done was to get the drone charged, only to lose a pod while it was in the air. Several other tries I never got to the drone.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 12, 2010, 01:03:38 AM
Spoiler
It's not that hard to reach the drone base; I build only 5 units to reach it. I even deactivate it at that moment, because I rather spend my precious energy on something else and only charge the drone when I really need it.
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Blaze on July 12, 2010, 01:11:45 AM
Good Job! (25)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 06:10:00 AM
I have failed at that about 10 times at this stage. ;D

Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 07:43:00 AM
Ah Jeez, I just failed twice at 3.47 just before getting the drone  :(
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 12, 2010, 09:48:06 AM
So what's going wrong?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM
Just my terrible playing. ;D

Yikes that was tough - the hardest start you have done. After that it can be played laid back - which I did a bit as I just wanted to finish havig messed up the start so many times. Way too cautious, I only set the drone to protect the survivors. My network collapsed in the centre bottom just as I was finishing and that cost a few minutes.

Anyway, I have said thanks for for the maps many times but once again, thanks for the series. It really was fantastic.

Will have time now to finish the two maps I couldnt finish, and my productivity in work might lift a bit.  :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 12, 2010, 12:12:41 PM
Quote from: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM
Just my terrible playing. ;D

Yikes that was tough - the hardest start you have done. After that it can be played laid back - which I did a bit as I just wanted to finish havig messed up the start so many times.

The next stages are indeed a lot easier, at least when you have prepared yourself well.

Quote from: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM
Way too cautious, I only set the drone to protect the survivors. My network collapsed in the centre bottom just as I was finishing and that cost a few minutes.

So did I. If you time well (and have enough energy to refuel the drone fast) you might be able to do a run somewhere else in between, but I messed up myself too often, so I avoided that.

Quote from: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM
Anyway, I have said thanks for for the maps many times but once again, thanks for the series. It really was fantastic.

Thanks Richie! :)

Quote from: RichieRich on July 12, 2010, 11:47:24 AM
Will have time now to finish the two maps I couldnt finish, and my productivity in work might lift a bit.  :)

You'll have a week. ;) I plan to release the first map in the Hard Art series next Sunday.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Mr.Grumpy on July 12, 2010, 04:14:55 PM
man, i just can't do this one. i'm up to about 50 tries.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Fisherck on July 12, 2010, 05:05:00 PM
The map maker sure knows how to beat his map best. By the fourth stage the depletion and distance of the network caught up to me and really slowed me down. I fixed the energy problem, but I had to be carefull of where to place blasters because of the time it would take to get ammo to them. The bug eyes at the end slowed me down too, and I had to build a couple more blasters to subdue it. Very hard and fun map. :o ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 12, 2010, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: Mr.Grumpy on July 12, 2010, 04:14:55 PM
man, i just can't do this one. i'm up to about 50 tries.

Tell me where you are stuck. Maybe I can give you a slight hint (or PM you when I would spoil it for others).

Quote from: Fisherck on July 12, 2010, 05:05:00 PM
The map maker sure knows how to beat his map best. By the fourth stage the depletion and distance of the network caught up to me and really slowed me down. I fixed the energy problem, but I had to be carefull of where to place blasters because of the time it would take to get ammo to them. The bug eyes at the end slowed me down too, and I had to build a couple more blasters to subdue it.

Yeah, when you know what you'll need you can build it in advance (space permitting).

Spoiler
Nevertheless I needed to build more reactors in section 4 because it was the only section with more room to build. Only sections 5 and 6 can be processed rather fast.
[close]

Quote from: Fisherck on July 12, 2010, 05:05:00 PM
Very hard and fun map. :o ;D

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 01:58:35 AM
wow, where to start! that was absolute torture!, and i can guarantee that i will never attempt that one again. i wouldnt necessarily say it was the map, i was getting bad lag by the second box, and by the time i got to the end i had over a 20sec lag. i lost sooo many units and i thought my laptop was gonna burst into flames! i started this game over 4 hours ago. oy, im just so glad its over.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:11:20 AM
I'm sure it wasn't the map, so could there be something wrong with your computer? Did you update Adobe AIR to the latest version recently by any chance? If so, please read here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3568.0). Lagging for more than 10 seconds is typical behaviour for that version and can be avoided by downgrading. When you've built a lot of structures you might experience some lag (measured in milliseconds) or a somewhat slower game speed, but 20 seconds is ridiculous. I'm surprised you were still able to finish, especially with these pods in section 5....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Mr.Grumpy on July 13, 2010, 02:44:18 AM
i finally did it! (after about 50 tries).

kees, you take the maps to another level!

and like melissa, i don't think i'll be trying to do it again anytime soon!

(that's a compliment)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:47:04 AM
50 tries? :o I admire your perseverance!

And thanks! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:11:20 AM
I'm sure it wasn't the map, so could there be something wrong with your computer? Did you update Adobe AIR to the latest version recently by any chance? If so, please read here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3568.0). Lagging for more than 10 seconds is typical behaviour for that version and can be avoided by downgrading. When you've built a lot of structures you might experience some lag (measured in milliseconds) or a somewhat slower game speed, but 20 seconds is ridiculous. I'm surprised you were still able to finish, especially with these pods in section 5....

actually i did update it last week and noticed lag right away, but just cursed and dealt with it. i used a link from the forum u posted, i hope it works. thank you.
yes 20 secs is ridiculous, im just glad i was able to finish it. id say 98% of my frustration was from the lag, and 2% the starting, that was rough. so good map, bad adobie!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:54:58 AM
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
actually i did update it last week and noticed lag right away, but just cursed and dealt with it. i used a link from the forum u posted, i hope it works. thank you.

You're welcome. But ehm, didn't I advise you to read more topics at the forums? ::) Would have saved you a lot of trouble.... On the other hand you admitted to be a stubborn lady, so I guess it suits you. ;D

Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 02:49:55 AM
yes 20 secs is ridiculous, im just glad i was able to finish it. id say 98% of my frustration was from the lag, and 2% the starting, that was rough. so good map, bad adobie!

Merci beaucoup. :) I'm sorry about your time. The good thing is that it wasn't your nor my fault and if your Adobe downgrade works out fine this was your last laggy map. Too bad you weren't playing an easy one.... ;)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:54:58 AM
You're welcome. But ehm, didn't I advise you to read more topics at the forums? ::) Would have saved you a lot of trouble.... On the other hand you admitted to be a stubborn lady, so I guess it suits you. ;D

Hey, dont be one of those "i told yah so" ppl..   ::)  let a stubborn woman do, what a stubborn woman likes to do.  ;D

Quote from: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 02:54:58 AM
Merci beaucoup. :)
Bienvenue monsieur.  :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 04:41:27 AM
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 04:21:21 AM
let a stubborn woman do, what a stubborn woman likes to do. ;D

I guess you're right.... I would get into trouble with almost every woman....






Damn! I do! Hahaha! ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 05:27:29 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 04:41:27 AM

I guess you're right.... I would get into trouble with almost every woman....

Damn! I do! Hahaha! ;D

well smarten up! whats better, being right or being happy?  :P hehe ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 13, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 13, 2010, 05:27:29 AM
well smarten up! whats better, being right or being happy?  :P hehe ;D

Hmmm, I guess being happy. I just don't understand why women can be both at the same time and men can't.... ;)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: F0R on July 16, 2010, 02:09:11 AM
Curse this map
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 05:52:19 AM
I'm way to slow to manage this map , i lose the pod at 3:47 every time =P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 06:01:12 AM
Quote from: F0R on July 16, 2010, 02:09:11 AM
Curse this map

Heheh! Yeah, it ain't easy, but it isn't supposed to be. That said bear in mind that the first section is definitely the hardest. (So the good thing is that restarting the map is only necessary after just a couple of minutes of game play.)

Quote from: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 05:52:19 AM
I'm way to slow to manage this map , i lose the pod at 3:47 every time =P

Are you able to get to the drone base in time? Or don't you just have enough energy to fuel it? Or does bombing section 5 not help you? Or did you maybe not even think of drone bombing section 5? ;)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 06:10:22 AM
I think i do something wrong in the start and use to much time on that ,
so i cant even get to the Drone in time , guess i can't stay cool enought =P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 07:03:19 AM
Spoiler
You need only 5 units to connect to the drone base (4 collectors and 1 blaster). You also need a second blaster to clear the area above Odin City, but you can use that somewhere else later on.
[close]

Does that help you?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 07:10:21 AM
It should =) , i'll find out next time i try the map =P
I have been making 2 Blasters very soon so far ,
so thats might be why i use to much time .
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 07:18:21 AM
Spoiler
Well, you do need them soon. I think I create my second blaster after my third collector.
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 09:33:41 AM
He he , i might mess up my pause and timing and moving ,
so i give this map an rest for some time now , it's starting to makeing me "evil" (mad) =P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 09:36:31 AM
Yeah, when it's getting to frustrate you it's better to take a break. I tend to forget or rush things when a map is giving me (too much) trouble.

But don't forget you were playing one of the hardest maps out of the series....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:19:43 PM
I understand that this is a hard map, but no matter what i try, I cannot get to the Drone! I've tried building a blaster firstm then a connector at the bottom of the question mark, then swapping the two and attempting to build another connector to bridge to the left-most pod, unfortunately, the blaster cannot keep the creeper under control, I've tried building a connector first, then a blaster at the bottom of the question mark, then building a second blaster, then using those two to clear creeper so i can bridge a connector to the left-most pod also. Thsi works better, but ultimately, I have no way to stop the creeper that comes down from above Odin city. I'd like someone to give me their steps for getting out of phase 1 and I'll trty them, because I see no way that 1 blaster can get you through thsi phase, unless I just cannot time it to within the one-thousandth of a second that it requires. In that case, I'm not sure it's a worthwhile map for me because i'm not having fun yet. Please help!
Thanks
Pasqualz
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:19:43 PM
I understand that this is a hard map, but no matter what i try, I cannot get to the Drone! I've tried building a blaster firstm then a connector at the bottom of the question mark, then swapping the two and attempting to build another connector to bridge to the left-most pod, unfortunately, the blaster cannot keep the creeper under control

Spoiler
The blaster can keep the creeper under control, but it depends where you put it. ;)
[close]

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:19:43 PM
I've tried building a connector first, then a blaster at the bottom of the question mark, then building a second blaster, then using those two to clear creeper so i can bridge a connector to the left-most pod also. Thsi works better, but ultimately, I have no way to stop the creeper that comes down from above Odin city.

Spoiler
Yes, this will indeed work better (meaning easier). But why go to the left when the drone is on the right?
[close]

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:19:43 PM
I'd like someone to give me their steps for getting out of phase 1 and I'll trty them, because I see no way that 1 blaster can get you through thsi phase

Spoiler
One blaster will certainly not get you out of this phase and if you like to finish the map you'll need to cap (almost) every emitter, so even two of them won't help you.
[close]

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:19:43 PM
unless I just cannot time it to within the one-thousandth of a second that it requires. In that case, I'm not sure it's a worthwhile map for me because i'm not having fun yet. Please help!

Nope, I don't like these kind of maps either (and now I'm laughing for a reason that only a few people know about ;D).

You should be having fun, so I hope my slight hints will help you out. Let me know if you still don't succeed, then I'll be more clear.

I noticed you recently played quite some of my maps; thanks for playing and I hope you'll be able to finish this one as well! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
I think your biggest clue to me is the "why go left, when you can go right?" statement. But I see no way to place any connections to the right or even above Odin city. Please don't tell me that the only way is to hover a blaster over the Crazonium walls. I hate doing that! I understand that you don't want to give away secrets to everyone on thsi discussion, but I sure would appreciate some more direct hints, erhaps if you could PM me with your first few steps??? I've retried thsi board about 50 times and ma having no luck!!! Thanks!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 03:13:33 PM
Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
I think your biggest clue to me is the "why go left, when you can go right?" statement.

Spoiler
You could be (go) right! ;)
[close]

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
But I see no way to place any connections to the right or even above Odin city.

Spoiler
Collectors connect to anything. So also to blasters.... (This is a VERY direct hint! Spiff, are you reading this as well? ;))
[close]

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
Please don't tell me that the only way is to hover a blaster over the Crazonium walls. I hate doing that!

So do I. None of my maps require bridging. I even doubled the crazonium walls for that reason; it's impossible now.

Quote from: pasqualz on July 16, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
I've retried thsi board about 50 times and ma having no luck!!! Thanks!

Believe me when I tell you that you'll be trying some more times, even when you're done with section 1. See these walls eroding between section 6 and 1? ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: SPIFFEN on July 16, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
QuoteCollectors connect to anything. So also to blasters.... (This is a VERY direct hint! Spiff, are you reading this as well? )
PFF , do you really think that i did'nt tryed that alot of times =P
I'm an bad player , but not that bad ;P
But still to bad to figure out how to get the start right for this map =)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 16, 2010, 03:33:43 PM
Heheh! Of course I understand that you know these two units connect, but did you apply it in this particular situation? It's the only way to get to the right side quickly.... (and that was what you were asking for as well).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
I cant seem to get the first step right.

The only option from the start is to either build a connector then a blaster at the base of the question mark, or the other way round - which would gain some time in fighting back the creeper. However, what can be done next ? Plunging the creeper at the center of the question mark and replace its place by a connector ? It gets destroyed very fast. I tried moving it around while the second connector was built, but the blaster doesnt resist much longer.
I'm not sure the pods should be retrieved in the first phase, but at least one has to, to gain enough space to move forward and reach the drone base.
That's where i am, stuck after one minute of gameplay.

Well I just succeeded in going a bit farther, creating a second blaster right after the first one, putting one on the central emitter and linking it to stabilize the situation. I actually connected to the drone, but i cant do it again, and i read earlier it wasnt the way to go.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
I cant seem to get the first step right.

The only option from the start is to either build a connector then a blaster at the base of the question mark, or the other way round - which would gain some time in fighting back the creeper. However, what can be done next ? Plunging the creeper at the center of the question mark and replace its place by a connector ? It gets destroyed very fast.

Spoiler
This is exactly what I do (first a collector and then a blaster). When you let the blaster first clear the area by letting it shoot for a while and then move it into the creeper of the question mark, you'll see that you'll be able to build a collector in it's place just in time, while the blaster succeeds in capping the emitter in the meanwhile and just doesn't die on you. When you can make it, this is the option that requires least energy.
[close]

Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
I tried moving it around while the second connector was built, but the blaster doesnt resist much longer.

Spoiler

Why not 'park' that blaster next to one of the pods if you like to build a second one? With 2 blasters you should be able to cap that center emitter without any problems (so it's the easy option and you'll need that second blaster anyway later on). You may have to let it fire a few shots so your reactors won't get destroyed, but that's it.
[close]

Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
I'm not sure the pods should be retrieved in the first phase, but at least one has to, to gain enough space to move forward and reach the drone base.
That's where i am, stuck after one minute of gameplay.

You can rescue the pods whenever you like; they won't be in real danger for quite a while (Odin City is probably destroyed long before), especially when you capped the emitters. The pods resemble the users/customers/players of the game you're creating, so you question them during the analysis phase. Besides that they occupy some space you'll need as you have noticed.... ;)

Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 03:35:25 PM
Well I just succeeded in going a bit farther, creating a second blaster right after the first one, putting one on the central emitter and linking it to stabilize the situation. I actually connected to the drone, but i cant do it again, and i read earlier it wasnt the way to go.

Why wouldn't this be the way to go? There are more solutions to the same problem. One will be more efficient than the other, but if you just like to finish the map instead of setting the highscore this option works just as fine as any other. :)

Let me know if you can make it now!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 06:16:15 PM
I can make it to phase 2 now.
I leave 2 blasters in zone 1 to keep things under control.

I'm using the drone for a first move to zone 2, while building a third blaster and moving him on the lower route (seems like the only possible one), and building two more connecters plus a 4th blaster and connecting to the 3rd totem.
Now the problem i have is to relieve the pressure in zone 5 to keep the pods alive.

I'll try again tomorrow. Its a pretty tight timing !
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 06:56:38 PM
Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 06:16:15 PM
I can make it to phase 2 now.
I leave 2 blasters in zone 1 to keep things under control.

Why not cap the emitters? You'll need the space....

Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 06:16:15 PM
I'm using the drone for a first move to zone 2, while building a third blaster and moving him on the lower route (seems like the only possible one), and building two more connecters plus a 4th blaster and connecting to the 3rd totem.
Now the problem i have is to relieve the pressure in zone 5 to keep the pods alive.

The drone is there for only 1 reason: keep the pods alive! Before you advance to the next stage you might want to make sure you have enough energy.

Quote from: MuadDib on July 17, 2010, 06:16:15 PM
I'll try again tomorrow. Its a pretty tight timing !

Good luck! :) (I won't be online tomorrow, so more tips on Monday....)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: MuadDib on July 18, 2010, 02:12:40 PM
Wow ! I just finished the map, a grueling one and a half hour of tension. My laptop started lagging heavily when attacking phase 3. I also made a few important mistakes during phase 6 - was getting tired :) - and needed 3 tries to beat this phase.

This is really a terrific map ! Pretty hard and very different.
Phase 1 is indeed the most difficult. I finally got it when I understood there was no real time pressure overall and that the first sector needed to be held strongly before moving forward. Specializing the drone to protect the pods was an important hint : you have to use blasters only to move forward sector to sector.

Thanks for this map :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: snowmaker (JM) on July 18, 2010, 10:05:31 PM
UpperKEES has given quite a few subtle and direct hints to help those who are struggling... You only have one or maybe two seconds of leeway to save OC, so the timing is very tight.


He said
"Well, you do need [blasters] soon. I think I create my second blaster after my third collector."


It was very satisfying to figure this out without the hints. I also did not hover over any of the walls. Good luck ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 19, 2010, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: MuadDib on July 18, 2010, 02:12:40 PM
Wow ! I just finished the map, a grueling one and a half hour of tension. My laptop started lagging heavily when attacking phase 3. I also made a few important mistakes during phase 6 - was getting tired :) - and needed 3 tries to beat this phase.

Yep, sector 3 is probably the hardest after phase 1, because you still lack enough space, which should be different after sector 4.

Quote from: MuadDib on July 18, 2010, 02:12:40 PM
This is really a terrific map ! Pretty hard and very different.
Phase 1 is indeed the most difficult. I finally got it when I understood there was no real time pressure overall and that the first sector needed to be held strongly before moving forward. Specializing the drone to protect the pods was an important hint : you have to use blasters only to move forward sector to sector.

Thanks for this map :)

Thank you as well. I hope you understand why I didn't want to give too many clues at once, because it is so much more satisfying to figure it out yourself.

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 18, 2010, 10:05:31 PM
UpperKEES has given quite a few subtle and direct hints to help those who are struggling... You only have one or maybe two seconds of leeway to save OC, so the timing is very tight.

He said
"Well, you do need [blasters] soon. I think I create my second blaster after my third collector."

It was very satisfying to figure this out without the hints. I also did not hover over any of the walls. Good luck ;D

I think I've indeed given enough hints for everyone to be able to finish this map, even for less experienced players. They will just take a bit longer....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: MuadDib on July 20, 2010, 06:48:20 AM
Well I tried playing the map on a much faster computer, but I cant finish it. No lag up until attacking phase 5, but when this phase is done I cant control anything anymore, not even pause. The game continues to play but I have no more access. One of the 4 CPUs is running at max speed while the 3 others watch him without breaking a sweat.

I thought at first that was because I had been playing the map now and then over a day, and perhaps there was a memory leak : the game was using close to 300Mo. But playing it at once had the same results, and same memory consumption.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 20, 2010, 10:14:35 AM
This sounds like the Adobe AIR problem again. Did you update AIR recently by any chance? If so, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3568.0). You should use version 1.5.3., because version 2.0.2 will slow down you computer a lot. In the mentioned topic you'll find a link to downgrade back to version 1.5.3.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: thepenguin on August 06, 2010, 05:56:22 PM
WOW!!

I couldn't even beat the first stage


just adding a few files here.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: thepenguin on August 06, 2010, 05:58:40 PM
Quote from: MuadDib on July 20, 2010, 06:48:20 AM
Well I tried playing the map on a much faster computer, but I cant finish it. No lag up until attacking phase 5, but when this phase is done I cant control anything anymore, not even pause. The game continues to play but I have no more access. One of the 4 CPUs is running at max speed while the 3 others watch him without breaking a sweat.

I thought at first that was because I had been playing the map now and then over a day, and perhaps there was a memory leak : the game was using close to 300Mo. But playing it at once had the same results, and same memory consumption.

sounds like you should set it to run on all cpus
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on August 10, 2010, 06:57:53 AM
Quote from: thepenguin on August 06, 2010, 05:56:22 PM
WOW!!

I couldn't even beat the first stage

If you read all comments you'll get enough tips to finish the first stage.

Quote from: thepenguin on August 06, 2010, 05:58:40 PM
sounds like you should set it to run on all cpus

Your operating system determines the load on each CPU. I'm sure the delays had to do with the version of Adobe AIR (see above).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: thepenguin on August 10, 2010, 11:55:06 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on August 10, 2010, 06:57:53 AM
Your operating system determines the load on each CPU. I'm sure the delays had to do with the version of Adobe AIR (see above).

actually, no

on winxp you can change which cpus it uses in task manager
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on August 10, 2010, 12:12:29 PM
Quote from: thepenguin on August 10, 2010, 11:55:06 AM
actually, no

on winxp you can change which cpus it uses in task manager

Yeah, same for Vista, but the default will be to use all, just like the priority of a user process will be set to 'normal' by default. Some processes can be split into separate CPU tasks and some can't, so I would leave that up to the operating system and not tamper with it.

Edit:

Quote from: UpperKEES on July 20, 2010, 10:14:35 AM
This sounds like the Adobe AIR problem again. Did you update AIR recently by any chance? If so, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3568.0). You should use version 1.5.3., because version 2.0.2 will slow down you computer a lot. In the mentioned topic you'll find a link to downgrade back to version 1.5.3.

The new update of Adobe AIR is available now and should resolve all lag problems, so I recommend anyone to update to this version (2.0.3), see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3568.msg20340#msg20340).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: DarthVader12 on August 22, 2010, 06:24:40 PM
still very hard for me
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on August 23, 2010, 09:23:05 AM
Quote from: DarthVader12 on August 22, 2010, 06:24:40 PM
still very hard for me

So where are you getting stuck?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: DethbyIT on September 10, 2010, 10:24:20 AM
Just starting this one and I think you saved (one of) the best for last.
I keep losing the pods, but I think that is just a problem with 'where' I am targeting it to hit.

I'll keep playing with it and hope I don't need any more hints.

BTW - playing with WIN7-32bit, i5, 4GB RAM, newest Air and NO lag so far.

Good stuff!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on September 10, 2010, 02:05:25 PM
Ah, so you managed to get the drone; that's important.

Spoiler
I'd aim for the center and don't wait too long with your next bombing run.
[close]

This is indeed one of the harder maps, but you've proven over the past 2 weeks that you're ready for it!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: DethbyIT on September 11, 2010, 07:04:53 AM
Tougher than I thought.
Cleared the first one OK - drone running/bombing 5th one.
Started clearing the second, when the wall collapses from 6 to 1, and it's game over.

Tried using the drone on both 5 and 6, but then the pods die.

Pondering this one.
:)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on September 11, 2010, 06:16:46 PM
I think you can find the solution to this when you read back previous comments.

I hope you don't mind that I leave you thinking about this a little more for now....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: DethbyIT on September 12, 2010, 04:49:58 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on September 11, 2010, 06:16:46 PM
I hope you don't mind that I leave you thinking about this a little more for now....

I agree - and I find that taking a break and coming back to a tough one can make a good difference.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on September 12, 2010, 10:06:36 PM
It sure can. Just let me know when the creeper from phase 6 keeps killing you!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on September 15, 2010, 04:50:35 PM
Quote from: DethbyIT on September 11, 2010, 07:04:53 AM
Started clearing the second, when the wall collapses from 6 to 1, and it's game over.

Tried using the drone on both 5 and 6, but then the pods die.

Pondering this one.

Quote from: UpperKEES on September 11, 2010, 06:16:46 PM
I think you can find the solution to this when you read back previous comments.

Hmmm, I just read back all comments and I guess the solution to this problem is not described explicitly here, so I figure I mentioned something in chat one day.

Spoiler
There is a hint for this in the first artifact however....
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 02, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
I finally dit it !

Unfortunately, I can't post my score (5733) because I didn't play on a computer with internet.  Maybe I will post it later.

The start was very hard to figure out but once you know how to do it, it's pretty easy.
The most annoying thing was to juggle with to blaster for preventing the creeping to go from 6 to 1.

Beside that, great map like always !
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 04:16:11 AM
Quote from: kropernic on November 02, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
I finally dit it !

:)

Quote from: kropernic on November 02, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
Unfortunately, I can't post my score (5733) because I didn't play on a computer with internet.  Maybe I will post it later.

You can indeed resubmit your score when this failed (due to an error or not having an internet connection). Just hit the resubmit button for that map in the custom map screen (highlight the map first by hovering your mouse pointer over it).

Quote from: kropernic on November 02, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
The start was very hard to figure out but once you know how to do it, it's pretty easy.
The most annoying thing was to juggle with to blaster for preventing the creeping to go from 6 to 1.

You don't have to juggle or bridge (on any of my maps).

Spoiler
The hint how to solve this is in the first artifact.
[close]

Quote from: kropernic on November 02, 2010, 07:27:34 AM
Beside that, great map like always !

Thanks kropernic!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 05:20:12 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 04:16:11 AM

You don't have to juggle or bridge (on any of my maps). The hint how to solve this is in the first artifact.


The fact is that the creeper don't destroy all the green wall between the phase 6-1.  So I can't link the blaster that I put on the passage with my network.  I have to switch two of them constantly.  Otherwise, the creeper invade the first part of the map and flooded me ^^
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 05:40:58 AM
Quote from: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 05:20:12 AM
The fact is that the creeper don't destroy all the green wall between the phase 6-1.  So I can't link the blaster that I put on the passage with my network.  I have to switch two of them constantly.  Otherwise, the creeper invade the first part of the map and flooded me ^^

Even when all green walls would be gone, you wouldn't be able to put a connected blaster on the arrow between sections 1 and 6, due to terrain limitations. This is on purpose, because I want the player to move through the phases like 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6, just as a real developer would do. :)

Spoiler
The solution is to put your blaster(s) somewhere else.... ;)
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
Lol.  I had try again before reading your post and I sea by myself the shape of the edge.  Damn ^^.

But I'm not flooded anymore but still, I don't like that solution.  Allowing the creeper to come visit me (even shortly) is frustrating to me.  I like to be "the master" ^^.

Btw, I upgraded my score from 5733 to 6238.  I think I did it slowly because I was waiting for the green wall to disappear ^^
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 06:50:26 AM
Quote from: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
Lol.  I had try again before reading your post and I sea by myself the shape of the edge.  Damn ^^.

;D

Quote from: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
But I'm not flooded anymore but still, I don't like that solution.  Allowing the creeper to come visit me (even shortly) is frustrating to me.  I like to be "the master" ^^.

It's just like real life: every now and then you will experience a tiny problem (complaining users!), but with a good approach/design you'll be able to solve it quickly. ;) If you place your blasters well, no harm will be done to any unit.

Quote from: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
Btw, I upgraded my score from 5733 to 6238.  I think I did it slowly because I was waiting for the green wall to disappear ^^

Oh, that's a fine score, about average for this map I think.

I still don't see it in the high score list though.... Don't tell me you visit the forums without an internet connection! :P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 07:00:00 AM
I play during pauses at work but I think I'm not supposed too.

So I avoid to post score from that computer (i'm posting here from another one). ^^
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 07:17:29 AM
Ah, I get it. If you like you can copy your GameData.dat file from one computer to another (from home to work and vice versa), so you have all your scores in one file. See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=368.0) for information about the location of this file. This way you can also submit a score set at work from your home computer. Before you overwrite an existing version of your GameData.dat file, make sure you make a copy first, because you probably don't want to lose scores. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 07:54:53 AM
I know I know ^^

Actually, I'm a developer ^^.  So I'm not so bad with that kind of manipulation ;-)

... I got to work, I have to take to much pauses this morning.

I'm still a bit slow but I got a good score now (6973).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 08:26:38 AM
Ah, didn't know that of course....

Well, in that case I understand you wanted to set a good score for this map!  8)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 03, 2010, 12:15:15 PM
7026 !

I'm getting  close ^^

But how the hell did you make 14 min... At 15 min, I am only at phase 3 ^^
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 01:37:01 PM
Spoiler
Like for any map I first try to use all available space to generate as much energy as I think I will need (without running into a deficit). I only engage the creeper when I have reached that amount, when I have to defend myself or when I'm out of space. When I still have space available after generating the required amount of energy, I try to build all weapons and other units (storage, speed) I need before starting the fight.
[close]

I hope that helps. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 04, 2010, 04:26:50 AM
That does not really help because I do that too.  But probably not the good way ^^.

But still, I upgraded my score to 7183.  Going up :-)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 10:54:08 AM
You're doing fine.... 4th place with that score!

Or are you only satisfied when you beat me? :P In that case: pause a lot!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: kropernic on November 04, 2010, 11:11:21 AM
Not specially beat you but still, i'd like to be in top 3 ^^.

But can you precise what you mean by "pause a lot" ?  Is there some technic to spare time ?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 11:23:42 AM
I always pause when adding new units to be built, so I can do this at exactly the right moment (especially for collectors and reactors). Also when moving units, so they all land at the same time for instance. I also pause when planning my collector lay-out to make sure I use every single square as efficient as possible.

Spoiler
I let weapons only fire at creeper that need to be killed soon to be able to advance; the rest can wait. ;) Speed nodes can pay off when collectors further away get built faster, so the blasters protecting that area need to fire less in the meanwhile. Capping emitters is often more effective when you drop a bunch of blasters close by, instead of bunny hopping there all the way. You need to be fast to connect to them though!
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 26, 2010, 02:06:58 PM
I am working on a video of this map. I was disappointed by the absence of one among those on YouTube; it can really help. Do you mind?

Of course, I need to beat it first.  ;)

(up to 5:17; I've mostly figured out Phase 1, keep forgetting about survivors; blaster in center is mysteriously getting destroyed now, as is left reactor)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 26, 2010, 10:23:15 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 26, 2010, 02:06:58 PM
I am working on a video of this map. I was disappointed by the absence of one among those on YouTube; it can really help. Do you mind?

Sure, go ahead. :)

Quote from: mszegedy on November 26, 2010, 02:06:58 PM
Of course, I need to beat it first.  ;)

(up to 5:17; I've mostly figured out Phase 1, keep forgetting about survivors; blaster in center is mysteriously getting destroyed now, as is left reactor)

Yep, you need to keep an eye on the future users of your program.

The blaster should be able to cap the emitter, just like the other ones. Maybe it's too close to it, so better move it a few blocks away.

Or maybe you experienced some creeper flowing from phase 6 to phase 1; you'll have to find a solution for that....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 03:01:13 PM
Nah, I've got a theoretical solution for that.

Unfortunately, I can't move the blaster any further away, because then it won't be able to bridge to the left side of the question mark and I won't be able to abate that mass of creeper flowing from the top left right corner, which could completely cripple my whole defense.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 27, 2010, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 03:01:13 PM
Nah, I've got a theoretical solution for that.

Good, you can find some hints about it in earlier comments....

Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 03:01:13 PM
Unfortunately, I can't move the blaster any further away, because then it won't be able to bridge to the left side of the question mark and I won't be able to abate that mass of creeper flowing from the top left right corner, which could completely cripple my whole defense.

Hmmm, then maybe build a connection below the question mark to the left? Although I think that I was able to connect to the left, right and upwards from the blaster capping the central emitter in section 1, without it getting damaged at all.

How many blasters are you using? And do you build some reactors to be able to sustain them?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
No, reactors waste space and put on too much strain. The way I do it is put the obvious collector, then build a blaster where the artifact was (and meanwhile spend my upgrade on 20% faster building- say what you like about range, I'm sticking with this). Then, I pause, move the blaster to right below and slightly to the left of (but not on) the central emitter, and at the exact same time build a collector in its place. This is sustained quickly enough for the blaster to survive. Then, I build a collector on the right side of the question mark (in the only spot available, you know the one) which quickly gets built, then I build a second blaster right below it. It is in this time that the creeper usually gets my reactor(s), if the blaster is not completed fast enough. What's strange is that sometimes it is made with plenty of time to spare, and others the creeper spills onto my left reactor, ruining everything and eventually leading to my demise. I occasionally forget to apply the upgrade, but even when I do I get these results. I then move this blaster into the creeper and immediately seal off that emitter. It is usually by this time that my central blaster self-destructs, and my whole game is lost.

From hereonout it's open- ideally, I make a collector on the tip of the curl of the question mark, and somehow connect it to the top right collector, so I can move the central blaster away from that emitter. Of course, I build a collector bridging to the drone and second artifact as soon as possible, and this generally happens fast enough (in fact, usually quite early) so that I may save the survivors in Phase 5. I work to cap off all of the emitters, and then (this has never been achieved) build a blaster at the tip of the arrow to Phase 2.

I do not have a plan for the rest (except one for Phase 6, but it's too boring to describe).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 27, 2010, 10:02:48 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
No, reactors waste space and put on too much strain.

Reactors waste space? That's new to me! ;) As far as I know they deliver most energy for the surface they occupy.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
The way I do it is put the obvious collector, then build a blaster where the artifact was

So far, so good.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
(and meanwhile spend my upgrade on 20% faster building- say what you like about range, I'm sticking with this).

Spoiler
Do you realize the '-10% building costs' also builds 10% faster and saves a lot more energy, especially during the beginning of a map? See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=338.0) for more info. The range upgrade is nice with mortars and SAMs and should certainly not be your first choice.
[close]

Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
Then, I pause, move the blaster to right below and slightly to the left of (but not on) the central emitter, and at the exact same time build a collector in its place. This is sustained quickly enough for the blaster to survive. Then, I build a collector on the right side of the question mark (in the only spot available, you know the one) which quickly gets built, then I build a second blaster right below it. It is in this time that the creeper usually gets my reactor(s), if the blaster is not completed fast enough. What's strange is that sometimes it is made with plenty of time to spare, and others the creeper spills onto my left reactor, ruining everything and eventually leading to my demise. I occasionally forget to apply the upgrade, but even when I do I get these results. I then move this blaster into the creeper and immediately seal off that emitter. It is usually by this time that my central blaster self-destructs, and my whole game is lost.

I do this almost exactly like you do, so I'd try a different upgrade.... Your approach seems to be fine! :) My blaster is on that very same spot as yours for the entire game!

Quote from: mszegedy on November 27, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
From hereonout it's open- ideally, I make a collector on the tip of the curl of the question mark, and somehow connect it to the top right collector, so I can move the central blaster away from that emitter. Of course, I build a collector bridging to the drone and second artifact as soon as possible, and this generally happens fast enough (in fact, usually quite early) so that I may save the survivors in Phase 5. I work to cap off all of the emitters, and then (this has never been achieved) build a blaster at the tip of the arrow to Phase 2.

Spoiler
I would first generate as much energy as possible instead of trying to move on fast. You'll need much more and where are you going to get it? Section 1 offers quite some space. Really, reactors are the answer! Connecting soon to the drone is good (because you get upgrade 2), but don't charge it yet; that's a waste of energy. Better save it to build more reactors first and charge the drone when needed (but in time!).
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 27, 2010, 10:02:48 PM
Do you realize the '-10% building costs' also builds 10% faster and saves a lot more energy, especially during the beginning of a map? See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=338.0) for more info. The range upgrade is nice with mortars and SAMs and should certainly not be your first choice.

No. Lower cost is not more efficient. See here:

The amount of time it takes to fill out a bar (either the building bar or the ammo bar) is dependent on this equation:

T = C/R

T is "Time taken to build", measured in seconds, C is "Cost", measured in packets, and R is "Rate at which packets are sent", measured in packets per second.
Let's use a reactor as an example (and assume that initially it's 5 packets per second, which is actually a gross exaggeration).

40/5 = 8 seconds

Now, what "costs 10% less" proposes to do is decrease C by 10%. This does not go into effect for the ammo bar. Our revision is:

36/5 = 7.2 seconds

What "builds 20% faster" proposes to do is increase R by 20%, and this works for the ammo bar too. Our revision is:

40/6 = 6 2/3 seconds

Build 20% faster is clearly the better option! Also, considering "Produce 10% more energy"...

R = P/t

P is "packets produced in one burst", measured in packets, and t is "time in between bursts", measured in seconds.
What "Produce 10% more energy" proposes to do is increase P by 10%. What "Build 20% faster" does is increase the quotient by 20% (done by dividing t by 120%). Let's see:

Original model:
10/2 = 5 packets per second

With "Produce 10% more energy" applied:
11/2 = 5.5 packets per second

With "Build 20% faster" applied:
10/(2/120%) = 6 packets per second

So "Build 20% faster" still wins.

Of course, I'm not factoring in starvation, but I don't know how it affects it anyway.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 01:04:36 AM
First of all: nice to see another math lover! :) When you like to analyse these kind of things, you may want to have a look at the Game Mechanics Quiz (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.0) (that just ended, but the Q&A's are still interesting).

Now, let's get to your post:

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
No. Lower cost is not more efficient. See here:

The amount of time it takes to fill out a bar (either the building bar or the ammo bar) is dependent on this equation:

T = C/R

R is "Rate at which packets are sent", measured in packets per second, C is "Cost", measured in packets, and T is "Time taken to build", measured in seconds.
Let's use a reactor as an example (and assume that initially it's 5 packets per second, which is actually a gross exaggeration).

40/5 = 8 seconds

By the way: the packet request rate is about once per 0.83333 seconds, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28404#msg28404), while the energy collection and depletion on your display are measured per 0.88888 seconds, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27267#msg27267). Not that it matters for your example, but maybe you like to know.

A better formula would be: T = C/R + D/S, where D = distance in pixels and S = speed in pixels per second. However we are not taking the distance into account now, so let's forget about that as well.

The request rate for ammo packets also depends on the need for ammo: a weapon with less than 50% ammo will request at double rate, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=246.msg14941#msg14941). Of course the +20% build speed upgrade doesn't affect that.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
Now, what "costs 10% less" proposes to do is decrease C by 10%. This does not go into effect for the ammo bar. Our revision is:

36/5 = 7.2 seconds

It does affect the ammo bar, only in a different way! When you look carefully it will jump from 90% to 100% when the last packet arrives (number 36 for a reactor), see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5260.0).

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
What "builds 20% faster" proposes to do is increase R by 20%, and this works for the ammo bar too. Our revision is:

40/6 = 6 2/3 seconds

Build 20% faster is clearly the better option!

Yes, this upgrade builds faster, that's for sure, but it also uses 20% more energy! Let's say you collect about 6 energy, then you can build about 6 reactors simultaneously without the upgrade, or about 5 reactors simultaneously with the upgrade, but faster. Besides that it only builds faster when you have the required energy in store. If you don't the reactor will be waiting for its requested packet until Odin City is able to produce it. The waiting queue is called starvation or deficit. When you see a deficit of 3 for instance, this means 3 packets have been requested, but couldn't be sent (yet), because of an energy shortage. This means the effective build speed can actually drop below the normal build speed, even when you applied this upgrade.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
Also, considering "Produce 10% more energy"...

R = P/t

P is packets produced in one burst, and t is the time in between bursts.
What "Produce 10% more energy" proposes to do is increase P by 10%. What "Build 20% faster" does is increase the quotient by 20%. Let's see:

Original model:
10/2 = 5 packets per second

With "Produce 10% more energy" applied:
11/2 = 5.5 packets per second

With "Build 20% faster" applied:
10/(2/120%) = 6 packets per second

So "Build 20% faster" still wins.

Of course, I'm not factoring in starvation, but I don't know how it affects it anyway.

Nope, this is a mistake. Build 20% faster indeed increases the request rate for build packets, but +10% energy does not affect the packet requests at all. It just multiplies your energy collection by 1.1.

So in short: when you have an unlimited amount of energy the +20% build speed is great, because everything finishes 20% faster (when the distance to Odin city is not taken into account). But especially during the start of a map you don't have unlimited energy. -10% building costs really saves energy, so you can build more (and 10% faster). +10% energy gives extra energy that can be used for building and firing.

You are building 3 collectors and 2 blasters so far, which will cost you 80 units of energy (apart from the blaster ammo). The -10% building costs upgrade will save you 7 units (3x1 + 2x2), plus it saves 10% of the time. The 20% faster building upgrade will only be effective when you have enough energy (to keep the first blaster firing and to build the second). When you see a deficit, I'm sure you will be building a lot slower. My advise (for 90% of all maps and assuming you obtain the upgrades during early game): first pick the -10% building costs and secondly pick the +10% energy. If you don't believe me, just try it for yourself and find out empirically. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 01:36:34 AM
Really? Then it has the same problem as 15% fire rate (which I consider to be one of the worst upgrades because it completely nullifies my strategy of sending armies of unconnected but completely full blasters into emitters to clear out that area and hopefully allow me to build relays fast enough to connect it to them; this is how I won everything after Tucana, because it is great fun): all it really does is deplete your resources faster. I am totally not getting this upgrade until, like, fourth.

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 01:04:36 AM
It does affect the ammo bar, only in a different way! When you look carefully it will jump from 90% to 100% when the last packet arrives (number 36 for a reactor), see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5260.0).

I did not know this.

BTW, are you up early, or just really, really late?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Kamron3 on November 28, 2010, 01:46:55 AM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 01:36:34 AM
Really? Then it has the same problem as 15% fire rate (which I consider to be one of the worst upgrades because it completely nullifies my strategy of sending armies of unconnected but completely full blasters into emitters to clear out that area and hopefully allow me to build relays fast enough to connect it to them; this is how I won everything after Tucana, because it is great fun): all it really does is deplete your resources faster. I am totally not getting this upgrade until, like, fourth.

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 01:04:36 AM
It does affect the ammo bar, only in a different way! When you look carefully it will jump from 90% to 100% when the last packet arrives (number 36 for a reactor), see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5260.0).

I did not know this.

BTW, are you up early, or just really, really late?

He's up really late... he's actually going to bed right now.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 03:38:16 AM
Ah. Understood. I myself am up quite late, but not quite as late as him! (local time 7:00 AM... wow... dedicated...)

Anyway, I don't know how to make an equation of efficiency for this now, as there are too many factors involved... I'll try tomorrow (or, more accurately, later today). Actually, let me try.

[okay, let's take the original equation UpperKEES wrote: T = C/R + D/S; seems good, R needs to be tweaked; R = P/t, hmm what can I do with that, of course change production to supply (s), what would that imply, well we need production rate for that and somehow factor in storage, I'll represent these as p/τ and σ respectively (Greek letters are sexy), p being the collective production of reactors and collectors oh I'm so glad I read that post by Virgil, and τ being yet another incarnation of time; oh, time elapsed and depletion might also be useful, gimme a second, well it somehow comes out to time elapsed times production rate minus depletion rate (the latter two in parentheses), hmm is that right yeah according to the distributive property it is, now how does that relate to everything else, aha we take P - (supply mod P) to get this properly; what determines P, eh who cares]

Finished!

I would totally write out the LaTeX for this, but, alas, I am on a pitiful trial version of Pi Cubed for iPhone. Instead, I present to you this monstrosity:

T = C/(((P-(e(p/τ - d)) mod P) + P - (P mod (e(p/τ - d) - P)))/t) + D/S
(P is packets requested)

Seems right. Lemme get the LaTeX.

(before you ask: no vidica involved)

EDIT: Seems to be nominative neutral rather than accusative masculine... fixed...

EDIT 2: Not only does it turn out that Pi Cubed does not have a "mod" function, it seems that I made a mistake in that part; stay tuned- I think this can be fixed without the use of overly technical stuff like propositional calculus!

EDIT 3: Fixed, with gratuitous use of parentheses and the modulus operation! Not sure what this accomplishes, but all is now well. No matter how hard I try, I can't get the section involving modulus to come out to 0 if s is greater than or equal to P.

EDIT 4: Still can't sleep, but I've hackneyed a pseudosolution to the math problem. It's not perfect but it's acceptable.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 11:15:59 AM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 01:36:34 AM
Really? Then it has the same problem as 15% fire rate (which I consider to be one of the worst upgrades because it completely nullifies my strategy of sending armies of unconnected but completely full blasters into emitters to clear out that area and hopefully allow me to build relays fast enough to connect it to them; this is how I won everything after Tucana, because it is great fun): all it really does is deplete your resources faster. I am totally not getting this upgrade until, like, fourth.

Spoiler
Yep, those two upgrades can really drain your energy resources, so you should only apply them when you're generating enough energy, or when you explicitly need them because the map requires it. Maybe something needs to be finished very fast to save survivors, or maybe you need the fire rate upgrade to be able to cap an emitter with 1 blaster when only one spot is available close to the emitter. Sending out paratroopers is indeed very effective (I recommend it especially for section 3 of this map) and the extra fire rate is often not what you want then.
[close]

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 01:04:36 AM
It does affect the ammo bar, only in a different way! When you look carefully it will jump from 90% to 100% when the last packet arrives (number 36 for a reactor), see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5260.0).

I meant health bar by the way, I just copied your words by mistake, but you probably got that....

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 01:36:34 AM
BTW, are you up early, or just really, really late?

Quote from: Gaara on November 28, 2010, 01:46:55 AM
He's up really late... he's actually going to bed right now.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 03:38:16 AM
Ah. Understood. I myself am up quite late, but not quite as late as him! (local time 7:00 AM... wow... dedicated...)

Yeah, I was up very late and got so tired that I decided to answer after some sleep. Especially when I'm supposed to do some calculations that works a lot better. ;)

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 03:38:16 AM
Anyway, I don't know how to make an equation of efficiency for this now, as there are too many factors involved... I'll try tomorrow (or, more accurately, later today). Actually, let me try.

[okay, let's take the original equation UpperKEES wrote: T = C/R + D/S; seems good, R needs to be tweaked; R = P/t, hmm what can I do with that, of course change production to supply (s), what would that imply, well we need production rate for that and somehow factor in storage, I'll represent these as p/τ and σ respectively (Greek letters are sexy), p being the collective production of reactors and collectors oh I'm so glad I read that post by Virgil, and τ being yet another incarnation of time; oh, time elapsed and depletion might also be useful, gimme a second, well it somehow comes out to time elapsed times production rate minus depletion rate (the latter two in parentheses), hmm is that right yeah according to the distributive property it is, now how does that relate to everything else, aha we take P - (supply mod P) to get this properly; what determines P, eh who cares]

Finished!

I would totally write out the LaTeX for this, but, alas, I am on a pitiful trial version of Pi Cubed for iPhone. Instead, I present to you this monstrosity:

T = C/(((P-(e(p/τ - d)) mod P) + P - (P mod (e(p/τ - d) - P)))/t) + D/S
(P is packets requested)

Heheh! :D Always nice to read things like this! It's rather complex however and I think you should just assume enough energy in store (enough energy collection at the moment of building the structure that is). If you want to take deficit and such into account, you should also be modelling the simultaneous building other units and that becomes very hard. The speed is influenced by the number of speed nodes and the distance between all nodes in your network (see quiz), so I think it really impossible to put the entire model into one formula that takes care of all exceptions. It's fun to try though! ;)

Now, have you been able to save that blaster in time? :P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 01:25:47 PM
Yeah, the blaster is fine, but now the second blaster isn't being built in time at all...

This is one of those maps where bridging just makes it worse.

EDIT: About the math: well, I'm just trying to figure out the time under which a given unit will be built. There's also creeper, but I'll be damned if I can accurately account for that (plus it's pretty much of a goner if it's gotten to that anyway). You don't have to involve speed nodes and such.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 02:04:01 PM
Bridging isn't intended. In fact I've tried to prevent it as much as possible.

Spoiler
So are you telling me that you still lose your reactors when you build: collector - blaster - collector - collector - blaster?

I don't get that, so I tried again myself:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3919.0;attach=1970;image)
[close]

Two things are important:
Spoiler
1. Pause every time you place a new unit, so you don't lose valuable seconds
[close]
Spoiler
2. Let the blaster first clear the center of the question mark before you move it there; this will prevent a lot of damage.
[close]

Spoiler
Maybe you noticed I even build a fourth collector in parallel with the third as there's enough energy available. It's never too early to start generating more energy!
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 04:55:54 PM
I actually spend most of my game in pause. I do things with a precision measurable in milliseconds- not a moment do I let go by without me building something, or waiting for some bar to fill. As for the first blaster- I wait it to charge about halfway before sending it in, and I already build the upper collector beforehand. So, that's not the problem.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 04:55:54 PM
I actually spend most of my game in pause. I do things with a precision measurable in milliseconds- not a moment do I let go by without me building something, or waiting for some bar to fill.

Okay, good.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 04:55:54 PM
As for the first blaster- I wait it to charge about halfway before sending it in, and I already build the upper collector beforehand. So, that's not the problem.

Did you read this?

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 02:04:01 PM
2. Let the blaster first clear the center of the question mark before you move it there; this will prevent a lot of damage.

You should be able to save the reactors now, right?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 07:50:14 PM
But then it takes too long to build the second blaster...
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 09:55:02 PM
Didn't you see the screenshot I posted? You have (almost) all the time of the world!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 10:11:05 PM
I know! And yet...
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 11:04:14 PM
So what's the problem? When you build everything like I suggested and with the precision you mention you should be okay. Please tell me when it goes wrong, or even better: post a screenshot. You can create one automatically by pressing backspace; it will be saved in your "documents\creeperworld_screens" folder. When posting just click additional options and add your screenshot as attachment. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 28, 2010, 11:07:47 PM
I didn't know that...

I'm posting a video. But, yeah, that's exactly what I did (but I left off the collector on the far left). But somehow, that creeper manages to creep to my reactors...

What's "double down" mode? (I haven't touched it I swear)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 11:16:13 PM
In Double Down all emitters emit with twice the speed they normally would, thus making your map harder. Don't tell me it says: "Double Down [ON!!!]" :P
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 12:08:27 AM
I don't even know where to change it...
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 12:17:18 AM
When you enter the Custom Map screen, you'll see the button on the top right, just below the Exit button.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:17:00 AM
Jus curious- would this map then be beatable if it really was on DD? And how would this affect my score?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 01:33:02 AM
Why don't you just check first if it's turned on or not? I've spent quite some time trying to help you, but you haven't advanced one single second. You can also use chat (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/chat/index.php) to ask simple questions if you like.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:17:00 AM
Jus curious- would this map then be beatable if it really was on DD?

No idea; I've never tried.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:17:00 AM
And how would this affect my score?

Your score would be exactly what gets displayed on your screen after finishing the normal way; no bonus or something like that.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:36:01 AM
Huh. So it's all personal challenge? Anyway, I'll go check reeeal quick to see if it's on double down... is there a keyboard shortcut that enables this? I might have accidentally pressed it...

EDIT: Nuh-ope. There's no "off" button either, which makes me wonder. And yes, I'm running the latest version (proof: I can't move the base before the timer officially begins).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 02:01:33 AM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:36:01 AM
Huh. So it's all personal challenge?

Yes, it is.

Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 01:36:01 AM
Anyway, I'll go check reeeal quick to see if it's on double down... is there a keyboard shortcut that enables this? I might have accidentally pressed it...

EDIT: Nuh-ope. There's no "off" button either, which makes me wonder. And yes, I'm running the latest version (proof: I can't move the base before the timer officially begins).

It becomes available after finishing the final Special OPS. When you haven't done so yet, this won't be causing your problems.

Looking forward to your screeny and/or video. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 05:33:54 PM
Okay, I'm exporting the video right now. I got a lot further than I thought I would- in fact, probably further than ever before. But I still didn't make it to phase 2, and I realized that, given the ultra-slow recharge rate on moveable units, my solution for phase 6 wasn't going to work. Look forward to said video.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to apply the trick of simultaneously moving and building veeeery early on. But it didn't kill me, so yay.

EDIT 2:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ob9DAfnCrcU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ob9DAfnCrcU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

EDIT 3: Uh.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: TommyCogs on November 29, 2010, 06:56:27 PM
Very Nice Map.. I finally finished the whole nice job series... awesome maps keep up the good work people like you keep this game interesting
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 08:31:46 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 05:33:54 PM
Okay, I'm exporting the video right now. I got a lot further than I thought I would- in fact, probably further than ever before. But I still didn't make it to phase 2, and I realized that, given the ultra-slow recharge rate on moveable units, my solution for phase 6 wasn't going to work. Look forward to said video.

You can't embed video's here, so just providing the link is fine.

I just watched it and you can improve quite a lot:
Spoiler
- You should try to generate much more energy before building more blasters. With this little space you need reactors!
[close]
Spoiler
- You should only build 2 collectors simultaneously when you have enough energy to do so. I noticed a deficit when you did.
[close]
Spoiler
- You can disable weapons like the drone. This way you can charge them later on when you really need them and use that energy for something else first.
[close]
Spoiler
- When you would move the blaster in the center just one block upwards, it won't be firing into the pool of creeper on the left, which also saves you energy.
[close]
Spoiler
- When you move a blaster and want to build a collector in its place, you can do this immediately after selecting the destination of the blaster; no need to wait until the blaster moves out of the way!
[close]

So mszegedy, I'm afraid you will be having quite some trouble beating the map with this style of play! Nothing wrong with that of course; it's the best way to learn. But if you keep having trouble I would recommend you to play some others first. In particular I would experiment with first generating a lot of energy and fight later versus starting the fight immediately and try to generate some energy on the way. You'll find that you finish much faster when you have a little patience in the beginning! :)

Anyway, enjoy and good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Quote from: TommyCogs on November 29, 2010, 06:56:27 PM
Very Nice Map.. I finally finished the whole nice job series... awesome maps keep up the good work people like you keep this game interesting

Thanks Tommy! :)

I indeed noticed many of your scores coming in over the past days. You've been busy! Great that you finished all of them! 8)

Well, you're just in time for my new Quagmire Quest series, unless you like to finish the Hard Art series first of course....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 10:47:21 PM
Well, I never expected to get past the first part, and thus I threw together the rest in a rough, slipshod hurry (usually I would have played it differently; first, after using the drone for the first time, build a reactor, then a blaster, and then another blaster, and then another reactor, then a collector towards the top left, and then another blaster; I'd use the first one to cap off the bottom left, the second one to thin phase 6, and the third to clear and then cap the top left. Square one completed!). I'm not sure why I didn't recall this, but I just kind of wanted to make a really quick video; I had homework to do (turns out I didn't have to worry about it, since I've caught the 24-hour bug or something).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 11:04:12 PM
Spoiler
Better to fill up all available space with reactors and a few collectors, then create 1-2 more blasters, clear the rest of the section and add even more reactors.
[close]

Don't worry about that bug.... you're not the only one. ;)

Edit: correction.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
For a second there I thought you meant a programming error, heh. I dunno, it might as well be food poisoning (something in the turkey? I am Hungarian, and I spend my summers in Hungary, but I "live" in America, where, as most people know, we celebrate Thanksgiving by consuming 1/3 of the world's turkey population).

Wait, relays? There are no relays. Or do you mean collectors?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 11:44:23 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
For a second there I thought you meant a programming error, heh. I dunno, it might as well be food poisoning (something in the turkey? I am Hungarian, and I spend my summers in Hungary, but I "live" in America, where, as most people know, we celebrate Thanksgiving by consuming 1/3 of the world's turkey population).

Ah, that explains your online times. But I bet it's not the turkey.... it's CW! ;)

Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
Wait, relays? There are no relays. Or do you mean collectors?

Sorry, collectors indeed. Corrected that, thanks.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 30, 2010, 12:09:03 PM
Okay, I can make it up to 7:50 now... but then phase 6 erupted and completely demolished everything. The good news is that I was closer than ever to finishing phase 1. In fact, I practically did.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 30, 2010, 12:09:03 PM
Okay, I can make it up to 7:50 now... but then phase 6 erupted and completely demolished everything.

Spoiler
To solve this you may want to think for a while about the last sentence in the first artifact.... ;)
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 30, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
Remove... hmm...

EDIT: What if I remove any blasters dealing with the bottom left corner, and let the creeper seething from there destroy that one decaying wall that's impeding me from placing a blaster next to that part?
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 01:59:43 PM
You won't be able to connect to anything placed on top of the arrow between sections 6 and 1; this is by design. You'll have to think of something else....

Please don't forget this is an expert only map!

The good thing for you to know is that the first phase is the hardest one by far! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: mszegedy on November 30, 2010, 02:00:41 PM
Right. I do want to beat it, though, as it seems like the best map.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 02:02:13 PM
Quote from: mszegedy on November 30, 2010, 02:00:41 PM
Right. I do want to beat it, though, as it seems like the best map.

Thanks, I do like it myself as well. :)

In my opinion it isn't the best map however; I can mention quite a few (by others) that I like better.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: DethbyIT on January 05, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
I think every time I manage to beat one of these UK specials it is the 'best' map - they are all good, that's for sure.
Apparently I never finished this one when I was trying a few weeks/months ago.

Great map - as always and thank you for putting it together.
dbit
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on January 11, 2011, 08:00:56 PM
Thanks dbit! :) This is one of my own favourites (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.msg8453#msg8453) as well....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Bacteriophage on July 05, 2011, 12:13:43 AM
Wow...  This is one of the most carefully constructed maps I have played.  I especially enjoyed the puzzles in the first sector.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on July 06, 2011, 02:30:57 PM
Thanks! I will release my last CW1 map soon.... It will be a puzzle map, so stay tuned!
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: White_Cat on May 10, 2012, 11:27:31 AM
IS this map actually solve-able, or has the game had some parameters changed since this map was created, making this map impossible?

One thing I see a distinct lack of is You-tube video's of solved custom maps.

There are  2 minute solutions in the "high scores" for many maps,  when I can not even build 2 collectors in that time.

If I can not even build 2 collectors that quick, how does someone build all the way to all the totems?




Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Karsten75 on May 10, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
No parameters have changed. Of the top 11 scores, at least 7 are well-known players with a good reputation here, so I don't suspect cheating. Ask a few questions of specific maps and you may get help.

I have not looked through the 10 pages discussion for this map, but there should be some hints in the discussion.

As for videos, sometimes they are hard to make since many of these maps include an awful lot of pausing to position units, etc, making the elapsed time of the video very long, or the amount of work to edit nearly impossible.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on January 29, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on May 10, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
I have not looked through the 10 pages discussion for this map, but there should be some hints in the discussion.

Everything you need to know to solve this map indeed is discussed in the comments. And as Grauniad says no parameters have changed. In fact it has become a little easier after the introduction of the packet control, because you can save on totem packets during the start of the map.

The reason I don't put CW-video's on YouTube, is because I don't believe people will become better players just from watching. It will only give away a strategy or solution that players should be thinking of themselves, because that's what makes a hard map fun. Retrying is the only way to become a better player. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Anonymeus on February 02, 2013, 04:39:03 PM
Wow - the legendary UpperKEES returns to the CW1 forums.

I started playing CW1 just over a year ago, well after you left CW1, and I am just now beginning to be able to beat your maps.

I salute you sir!

:)

(and please, please, please make moar CW1 maps....)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on February 03, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Yeah, my last CW1 map dates back more than 1 year (The CERN Concern), but after creating them for about 2 years that really is my last one.

As you may have read in Virgil's blogs, CW3 will be a lot more like CW1 than CW2 was, but with many more features. You can count on some interesting custom maps from my hands.

Thanks for the compliments and enjoy the remainder of my series. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: Anonymeus on February 03, 2013, 08:26:45 PM
Sir UpperKEES,

I hope you will change your mind. When it comes to creeper game features (and I've watched all the Knuckle Cracker cw3 blog videos), I fear that less is more... (who needs extra features in chess?).

I hope I'm wrong - and I definitely hope that Virgil will prove me wrong.

Just please know that if you were to make another CW1 map, there would be plenty of appreciative players...

Thanks for the maps again! (& I have cursed you often while struggling with them  ;-)



Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 25: The Developer
Post by: UpperKEES on February 04, 2013, 04:40:17 AM
You're absolutely right; very often less is more. That's definitely one of the strengths of CW1. But believe me, Virgil is very aware of that. The basics of the game remain the same and in fact anybody would be able to create a CW1 map without using any of the new features. It would just look nicer.

That said I'm sure you'll love fighting the Digitalis. It offers map makers an additional option to make a map interesting right from the start without using insane emitters. The game is being tested thoroughly to ensure new units are not overpowered. I find myself beating maps the old fashioned way most of the time, just with some aid of the new units.

Besides that the programmable units will offer map makers the option to become even more creative. Some may go overboard with that, but it's a learning curve, so their next map will be better. I know I have made some maps too hard for the average player....

If you are still looking for nice CW1 maps, I can recommend you some great map makers. Try a few maps made by:
- Sauffaus (he created my all time favorite: Alien Alter Ruin. Graphics are great as well.)
- Fisherck (many very good maps that are interesting and never become a slog, especially the harder ones)
- Kapoios (creator of the best puzzle map ever: The Temple of Moloch.)
- MadMag (definitely the best looking maps around.)
- Sqaz (nice historical and geographical maps. Also inventor of the Multitask map.)
- Bort (just a few, but all of them very much worth playing. I'm sure you'll curse him too!)
- ItsFunToLose (one of the very good early map makers.)
- F0R (if you like natural looking terrain maps.)
- Vexsin (did a very nice hard series.)

There probably are many more, because I stopped playing after playing more than 1000 of them (hundreds before scores even could be submitted; that feature was added later).

Enjoy and keep struggling, that's what makes it so much fun. Cursing is fine too, as long as you hit the restart button. ;)