Skill vs computer speed

[Sorrontis]

Spoiler

I would strongly disagree.  A number of times there have been maps up loaded where the player only needs to land a CN and place a Nullifier next to something like a Spore Tower.  Once the scores are listed, the time tend to very.  A LOT!

That's because there's a specific technique to building a nullifier as quickly as possible. You have to build two collectors

[close]

(using the N button to advance frames so no energy is ever wasted)

Spoiler

and then build a nullifier, and the distances between the CN and the buildings matter, and everything must be set into action one at a time the immediate frame a packet is launched for that last point of construction.

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I just learned something!

[Alter Old]

For Sid Meier's Civilization computer speed is indifferent.
For Warcraft: Orcs & Humans moderately weak computer gave advantage.
For DooM strong computer (again, not indefinitely) gave advantage.
Since then practically nothing has changed. If you use a mode 'step-to-step' (Pause and key 'N') we have analogue of a Civilization (only the opponents make their moves simultaneously, rather than sequentially). If not use, we have analogue Warcraft. Not in one case there is no advantage of a strong computer before weak.

Spoiler

For CW1 I sometimes specially slowed down a computer background problems to have time to use a pause. : )

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[Cavemaniac]

For Sid Meier's Civilization computer speed is indifferent.
For Warcraft: Orcs & Humans moderately weak computer gave advantage.
For DooM strong computer (again, not indefinitely) gave advantage.
Since then practically nothing has changed. If you use a mode 'step-to-step' (Pause and key 'N') we have analogue of a Civilization (only the opponents make their moves simultaneously, rather than sequentially). If not use, we have analogue Warcraft. Not in one case there is no advantage of a strong computer before weak.

Spoiler

For CW1 I sometimes specially slowed down a computer background problems to have time to use a pause. : )

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Yep.

I'm getting old and my reactions aren't what they were.

So, I play the Creeper World games as though they were turn based rather than real-time.

Pause, issue commands, unpause.

Repeat.

The 'n' key option is an extreme variation of this - I don't need to issue commands thirty times a second!

But that's just me.

Everyone has their own play style.

Some more successful than others.

[Tero]

I read an interesting reply the other day.  Apparently cheating is possible.  Specifics weren't given.  But based on what I have encountered with CRPL, it is a reasonable explanation for unwinnable maps being uploaded and finished by other like minded individuals.

I tried the "N" method on a new (never played by me) custom map.  When I begin any map, I study it and create a plan of action.  Often the plan works with the expected set backs.  After finishing the map and submitting my score, I replayed again using pause as needed.  While I can't repeat each move/step I took, I still followed the plan and got much better score.  Some might suggest the first time was longer because I hadn't played this map before.  But I'm using the "N" method and following my original plan.

Often the maps I struggle with have two things in common.  Very little space or time to build.  Like build half a dozen weapons and as many beams.  Then keep them powered.  In under 4 minutes.  Why some of you consider this type of map fun is beyond me.  I'm patient, analytical and willing keeping trying.

The comment about members being friendly is debateable.  I commented to map maker/uploader/author an aspect of CW1 that I miss.  And that didn't recall something else about CW1.  One of the Kool-aid sippers quoted me and wrote a factoid about CW1.  In real life, if this conversation were between two people.  And the kool-aid sipper over heard the conversation and blurted out a comment, it would considered rude.

Before the cheating revelation, I wondered if skill could be removed from the equation.  And what the submitted scores might look like.  Custom map 1842 seemed to me like a good candidate.  But has it been pointed out, there a number of ways to finish this map.

So I put it those in the skills camp: Is there a map that can be played only one way.  I'm on the fence if the player should have no control or limited control because of reaction times.

[Karsten75]

Tero, I just uploaded a no-skill map - Speedy Skiller - to Colonial Space. It has my time on a relatively fast computer recorded on it.  You can watch if others get different scores.  http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=19261.0

In due course I will delete the map from CS, we don't really want maps like that there.

[Vanguard]

Tested the map. Lucky number four. 10/10, would test again. Got beat by Karsten, Virgil and Gray be 0.0 seconds! DAMN YOU SPEEDFREAKS!  ;D

[Grayzzur]

Cheating typically involves hacked clients posting fake scores, but that usually applies to impossibly low times.

Timing, placement of nodes, floating the command node, adding a relay (packets travel faster), all adjust how quickly a thing can be built and charged.

The maps you say you struggle with, a lot of people struggle with. I struggle with many of those myself -- and I find some of them fun, and some of them frustrating, and I probably have several dozen that I've started and never finished. (I have a very fast computer, too.)

Karsten, FYI: If someone were to move the collector a hair to the right, giving it a bit more area and a smidge more power... the final time is 1:08.7 instead of 1:09.5. Moving the nullifer a hair closer to the CN doesn't seem to make a different on this map. I say this because someone is probably going to post that 1:08.7 time, and it won't be because of the speed of their computer. (They moved the collector a little to the right.) :)

[teknotiss]

I read an interesting reply the other day.  Apparently cheating is possible.  Specifics weren't given.  But based on what I have encountered with CRPL, it is a reasonable explanation for unwinnable maps being uploaded and finished by other like minded individuals.

cheating is possible in almost every computer game. cheaters scores hold no relevance to a discussion of skill vs pc speed

I tried the "N" method on a new (never played by me) custom map.  When I begin any map, I study it and create a plan of action.  Often the plan works with the expected set backs.  After finishing the map and submitting my score, I replayed again using pause as needed.  While I can't repeat each move/step I took, I still followed the plan and got much better score.  Some might suggest the first time was longer because I hadn't played this map before.  But I'm using the "N" method and following my original plan.

well it really is probable that your experience is the difference. perhaps try using the same settings in the DMD to generate a pair of maps, just select a different terrain seed to get a variation. still no way of double-blind testing this, so there will always be some influences distorting comparisons

Often the maps I struggle with have two things in common.  Very little space or time to build.  Like build half a dozen weapons and as many beams.  Then keep them powered.  In under 4 minutes.  Why some of you consider this type of map fun is beyond me.  I'm patient, analytical and willing keeping trying.

if you don't like em don't play em.... ;)
plenty of choice and i invite you to submit some DMD of CS maps too!

The comment about members being friendly is debateable.  I commented to map maker/uploader/author an aspect of CW1 that I miss.  And that didn't recall something else about CW1.  One of the Kool-aid sippers quoted me and wrote a factoid about CW1.  In real life, if this conversation were between two people.  And the kool-aid sipper over heard the conversation and blurted out a comment, it would considered rude.

this isn't a private talk. this is a open forum for debate, discussion and conversation.
you are not having private discourse unless you use the PM function. anything posted on these fora is free for others to chime in as they please.
"Kool-aid sipper" is a bit. not very nice really. i don't recall anyone insulting you, please do us the courtesy of being civil here. this is a friendly forum, just because you don't like the answers you get doesn't mean anyone is a "Kool-aid sipper"  ::)

Before the cheating revelation, I wondered if skill could be removed from the equation.  And what the submitted scores might look like.  Custom map 1842 seemed to me like a good candidate.  But has it been pointed out, there a number of ways to finish this map.

use the editor and make a map with an air exclusion zone.
play it (use n for frame by frame comparison) and see the score will be the minimum 46 secs or so.
install CW3 on a slower or faster PC (V is happy for you to install on multiple PCs, http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=14165.msg103893#msg103893)
play the map again, perhaps alongside the other copy on the other machine.
using n will show you it is frame locked.

So I put it those in the skills camp: Is there a map that can be played only one way.  I'm on the fence if the player should have no control or limited control because of reaction times.

yes, simple insta-kill maps are "playable" only one way. single helpless enemy and one nullifier. 46.something secs every time!

also, welcome to the forums, hope you are enjoying the game?
8)

[Karsten75]

Karsten, FYI: If someone were to move the collector a hair to the right, giving it a bit more area and a smidge more power... the final time is 1:08.7 instead of 1:09.5. Moving the nullifer a hair closer to the CN doesn't seem to make a different on this map. I say this because someone is probably going to post that 1:08.7 time, and it won't be because of the speed of their computer. (They moved the collector a little to the right.) :)

Thanks - fixed it. :) I hope.

[Karsten75]

I've gone a step further and made a more complicated map. Here it is, press play, and optionally you can speed it up with the 1x, 2x, 3x, or 4x options. Feel free to tweak the Forge options for more storage or faster firing speed. I don't know if there are any options to actually change anything and improve map completion time.

I've asked Virgil if there is a way to check completion times without uploading the map to CS, since I'd not want to clutter CS with meaningless maps.

My time is 43:29.1 and my score is 5797.

Virgil kindly donated some assistance:

http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/scoreQuery.php?gameUID=ff1bffb67fa0fa2a7c38e397b6be387a
That will return XML with the score record.  If you do it in a browser, select "view page source" to see the actual xml
That will separate out the numbers

[applemachome]

 ;)

[warren]

... Apparently cheating is possible.  ...

The number of cheaters always seems to be quite low. In addition, cheaters never seem to upload maps. (Unless you count J's initially unwinnable maps, or that 300x300 map by zeroster.)

... I'm patient, analytical and willing keeping trying.

Then one day you too will master the force. And the game.

... Kool-aid sippers ...

Although that sounds like a pg insult, it is in metaphor to <just google it>. Please don't use on this forum.

[Michionlion]

Jesus Christ. That... is not something welcome here at all.  I'm not sure I want to keep reading that user's posts now. /offtopic

[Karsten75]

References to Kool-aid has entered the general lexicon and is understood by most people in context of "blindly following and supporting  a cause, sports team, religion, protest, political figure, etc. without first looking into it or researching it."

No need to delve deeper or attribute ulterior motives.  Let the grass grow.

[warren]

Apologies. I really should not have brought that up.  :-X