Knuckle Cracker

Creeper World => Gameplay Discussion => Topic started by: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM

Title: Game Mechanics Quiz 1 - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
I thought it would be fun to create a little quiz about the CW game mechanics. (I've considered posting it in the random discussion board, but because you'll probably learn a lot by reading and participating I figured this would be the best place.) See here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5421.msg29624#msg29624) for the second edition.

Rules:
- I'll post a total of 10 questions.
- I'll post the next question one day after the correct answer has been given (time permitting), or one week after the previous question.
- The first person to give the correct answer gets 1 point.
- I will use the forum time stamp of the post to determine who was first. When you've edited your post the edit time stamp counts, so be careful with this. Better create a new post if you like to add something when other people have posted their answer after you did.
- The one with most points in the end wins (should be before the end of the year).
- When there's a tie I will keep asking questions until we have a winner with a 2 point lead. Anyone can participate with these additional questions and try to catch up.
- As long as no correct answer has been given you can try, even when the next question already has been posted, but you can attempt only once; wrong is wrong.
- I won't be responding to second 'guesses' in any way; I will only respond to serious first time answers.
- Of course you're allowed to create your own testmap in the map editor to figure it out empirically.


RankName
Points
1.mthw2vc
6
2.Sqaz
4
3.Nate Dog
2
4.Blaze
1

Question 1:
Please have a look at the image below.

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1650;image)

You see a little trench with a length of 10 blocks. Its bottom is at elevation level 1 and its borders are at elevation level 5. At the first and the last position are 2 equal emitters. Each emitter has an intensity of 4, an interval of 1 second and an initial delay of 1 second. How many seconds will it take before the trench is completely filled after starting the map?

Answer 1: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27115#msg27115).

Question 2:
During exactly 1 minute of gameplay the following things happen:
A. 1 blaster is capping an emitter with 1.2 intensity and 0.5 second interval
B. 1 blaster is capping an emitter with 1.5 intensity and 0.4 second interval
C. 3 SAMs intercept 5 incoming spores of 1.8 intensity
D. 1 blaster intercepts 2 incoming spores of 1.8 intensity
E. 1 blaster fires continuously from a tiny island surrounded by a very deep pool of creeper
F. 1 mortar fires continuously into another deep pool of creeper
G. 2 drones recharge completely

All weapons used for events A to G are different weapons and don't interfere with each other in any way. They won't starve and no upgrades have been applied. What is the minimum amount of energy you need to generate per second to finish this minute with exactly the same amount of energy in store as you started? The answer has to be exactly correct (one decimal).

Answer 2: given by Sqaz, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27217#msg27217).

Question 3:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1693;image)

How much energy collection would be displayed on your screen when 3 decimals would be used behind the decimal point?

Answer 3: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27533#msg27533).

Question 4:
How many squares does a packet travel per second horizontally or vertically when 4 speed nodes are connected to your network? You can round your answer to the nearest integer (as I don't have the exact data either).

Answer 4: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27649#msg27649).

Question 5:
In this topic (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5062.0) we've seen that a mortar does a maximum damage of 42.4 ccc (cubic creeper cells) per unit of energy, while a drone does a maximum damage of 125 ccc per unit of energy. What is the maximum damage per unit of energy for a blaster?

Answer 5: given by Sqaz, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27817#msg27817).

Question 6:
A completely flat map contains 10 emitters. Each of these emitters emits 10 cubic creeper cells (ccc) per second on average. Please see the table below for their specifications:








Emitter
Start
(seconds)
Interval
(seconds)
Intensity
(ccc)
# blasters needed
without firing
rate upgrade
# blasters needed
with firing
rate upgrade






1
0.1
0.1
1
?
?
2
1.1
0.1
1
?
?
3
0.1
0.2
2
?
?
4
1.1
0.2
2
?
?
5
0.1
1.0
10
?
?
6
1.1
1.0
10
?
?
7
0.1
1.1
11
?
?
8
1.1
1.1
11
?
?
9
0.1
3.5
35
?
?
10
1.1
3.5
35
?
?






Total:
A: ?
B: ?




A. What is the mininum amount of pre-built (and fully charged) blasters needed to cap all emitters without the +15% firing rate upgrade?
B. What is the mininum amount of pre-built (and fully charged) blasters needed to cap all emitters with the +15% firing rate upgrade?

Both answers (the green question marks in the table above) have to be correct. I won't indicate when only one of them is correct.

Additional info:
- All emitters are spaced in such a way that the blasters capping them don't influence each other or other emitters.
- All blasters are always placed exactly 3 blocks (30 pixels) from the emitter they cap (measured from the center of the blaster to the center of the emitter).
- When more than one blaster is needed to cap an emitter these blasters are stacked on top of each other.
- An emitter is considered being capped when the creeper isn't able to keep spreading. It is no problem when the creeper partially disappears due to evaporation.
- The +20% firing range upgrade is never used.
- You can assume that all blasters used will always have enough energy to fire.

Answer 6: given by Sqaz, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27972#msg27972).

Question 7:
You are playing a very hard map and many units are needed to finish it. Let's divide your CW screen into 6 sections:

ABC
DEF


The lines between A & D and B & E indicate a normal (green) uninterrupted wall, currently 2 blocks thick (a double row that is).

Section A: contains an immovable Odin City, 2 speed nodes, 1 blaster capping an emitter, 1 blaster holding off creeper and 2 mortars: one firing into a small pool as defence and one shooting over the wall to prevent it from eroding.
Section B: contains 2 relays crossing a mountain range, 4 blasters capping 2 emitters and again a mortar shooting over the wall.
Section C: contains 1 drone base, one mortar being built, 3 blasters capping 2 emitters and 2 blasters being built.
Section D: no units here, just lots of creeper and 4 totems. Only a tiny island can be seen, directly against the other side of the wall.
Section E: same as D, only about half the amount of creeper. 25% of all land here is creeper free.
Section F: 6 blasters are firing into the creeper, supported by a drone; they can barely hold off the creeper. 2 blasters are being built here as well.

Most of the available surface of sections A, B, C and F is covered with collectors, supplying about 6.3 energy. Your reactors (mostly in sectors A and B) supply another 16.5 energy, making a total collection of 23.7 on your display. All emitters on the map have an interval of 0.1 seconds, but vary in intensity. Your spore display indicates that spores will be arriving in one and a half minute. From experience you know there will be 2 of them coming from the south with an intensity of 1.5. All techs except for Thor are available and all six upgrades have already been collected and applied. There is at least one free space (3 by 3 blocks) in each section that can be reached to build.

What is the first unit you build and in which section? Please explain why, one line is enough. Of course you can build anything you like, but there is only one best choice. ;) Besides unit type and section your explanation has to be correct as well to earn the point!

Answer 7: given by Nate Dog, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28032#msg28032).

Question 8:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1859;image)

A blaster and a mortar fire from an island into two equal pools with creeper. The entire bottom of both pools is covered with emitters of 0.1 second interval, so all damage done is negated before the next shot occurs. After very accurate measuring it turns out that both weapons do precisely the same amount of damage per second. What is the exact depth of the creeper in both pools? (You are allowed to round to one decimal.) Tip: it doesn't matter if the fire rate upgrade has been applied, but it makes calculating a lot easier.... ;)

Answer 8: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28381#msg28381).

Question 9:
How many frames does it take to decay for a wall element that is exposed to the creeper from only one side?

Answer 9: given by Nate Dog & Blaze, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28676#msg28676).

Question 10:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1927;image)

You see two totems ready to be charged. Using testmap 1 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1929) you will succeed; using testmap 2 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1930) you won't. Please explain the difference and why this occurs. Thanks to Kapoios who provided the testmaps! :)

Answer 10: given by Sqaz, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28861#msg28861).

Question 11:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1944;image)

Spores randomly target all finished relays and collectors on a map, but they don't aim very precisely as you may have noticed. How many squares are vulnerable to getting hit by a spore on this map?

Answer 11: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg29040#msg29040).

Question 12:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1951;image)

9 emitters with intensity 2 are emitting for exactly 1400 seconds and all of them start at the exact beginning of this time frame. Emitter 1 has an interval of 0.1 seconds, emitter 2 has an interval of 0.2, etcetera, and finally emitter 9 has an interval of 0.9 seconds. All emitters are placed on single squares at elevation level 5 and these squares are located in a huge pool that won't fill up, because its bottom at elevation level 1 contains 16 zero intensity emitters that suck the creeper away. Odin City just flies around trying to survive....

A. How much ccc of creeper is emitted exactly by these 9 emitters during this time frame in normal mode?
B. How much ccc of creeper is emitted exactly by these 9 emitters during this time frame in Double Down mode?

Please note that both answers have to be correct and they will be affected by this recently discovered bug (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5351.msg29049#msg29049)!

Answer 12: given by mthw2vc, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg29095#msg29095).

And mthw2vc wins the quiz! 8)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Grauniad on October 19, 2010, 12:31:35 AM
14 seconds.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 12:37:36 AM
Quote from: Grauniad on October 19, 2010, 12:31:35 AM
14 seconds.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on October 19, 2010, 01:16:02 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
I thought it would be fun to create a little quiz about the CW game mechanics. (I've considered posting it in the random discussion board, but because you'll probably learn a lot by reading and participating I figured this would be the best place.)

I'll ask a new question every week, 10 in total. The first person to give the correct answer gets 1 point. The one with most points in the end wins (should be around the end of the year). As long as no correct answer has been given you can try, even when the next question already has been posted, but you can attempt only once; wrong is wrong. Of course you're allowed to create your own testmap to figure it out empirically.

Question 1:

Please have a look at the image below.

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1650;image)

You see a little trench with a length of 10 blocks. Its bottom is at elevation level 1 and its borders are at elevation level 5. At the first and the last position are 2 equal emitters. Each emitter has an intensity of 4, an interval of 1 second and an initial delay of 1 second. How many seconds will it take before the trench is completely filled after starting the map?

So there are 10*4 blocks to fill as it may not overflow. That means that it's 1 second (initial delay) + 5 seconds (((10*4)/4)/2) so 6 seconds.

Edit: Sorry small mistake here, there are 90*4 blocks to fill, which means it'll take 1 sec + 45 seconds = 46 seconds.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 01:36:15 AM
Quote from: Sqaz on October 19, 2010, 01:16:02 AM
46 seconds.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on October 19, 2010, 02:18:37 AM
59 seconds
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 02:26:27 AM
Quote from: Nate Dog on October 19, 2010, 02:18:37 AM
59 seconds

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Echo51 on October 19, 2010, 04:09:28 AM
The average time for U238 radiation halflife if inside the human stomach system?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 05:04:46 AM
I made an test map for this , becuase i dont know the math for it =P
But i got score shown when it happend ,
so my guess is 60 sec or 60,1 sec if you need it more accurate =P
( the score shown is 9834 , if i manage to pause it in time =P )

Made this map for the test :
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 19, 2010, 06:30:31 AM
51 seconds
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 05:04:46 AM
60 sec

Incorrect.

Quote from: ontheworld on October 19, 2010, 06:30:31 AM
51 seconds

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 08:31:36 AM
The question is when it gets filled ?
Not when its spills , right ?
Guess i have to wait some time before i get this =P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 08:48:35 AM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 08:31:36 AM
The question is when it gets filled ?

Yep, when will it be filled entirely?

Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 08:31:36 AM
Not when its spills , right ?

Right. Will it ever spill with these emitter specifications? ;)

Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 08:31:36 AM
Guess i have to wait some time before i get this =P

It could very well be an "Ah, of course!" moment. :P

I'll explain when the correct answer has been given, or when the quiz is over. Still many people who haven't even read this yet. Especially mthw2vc might know the answer if someone else doesn't beat him to it. Please note that I won't be responding to second 'guesses' in any way; I will only respond to serious first time answers.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Echo51 on October 19, 2010, 10:18:37 AM
My final and real guess is gonna be 3-4 seconds, due to it not flowing out evenly :P


actually, 6-7 instead, dident notice the initial delay
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 10:48:17 AM
Quote from: Echo51 on October 19, 2010, 10:18:37 AM
6-7

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: J on October 19, 2010, 11:08:32 AM
57-58 seconds
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 11:12:26 AM
Quote from: J on October 19, 2010, 11:08:32 AM
57-58 seconds

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on October 19, 2010, 01:42:59 PM
Quote
Emitter with intensity 4 cannot fill it. You need emitters with intensity 5!

An emitter with intensity 4 will fill it, it just won't overflow it.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 19, 2010, 05:44:12 PM
SPOILER ALERT!
It will never fill. An emitter only sets the depth of creeper to its intensity, so each pulse produces less and less creeper, with the limit being 4. Emitters with 0 intensity are a good demonstration of this effect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Mare on October 19, 2010, 08:04:27 PM
It will fill, but not completely, and it can never overflow unless the intensity is higher than 5.


Its a trick question, the trench can NEVER be completely full, only mostly full.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Fisherck on October 19, 2010, 08:39:40 PM
Well, I think it is still completely full, sinse if you put an emitter that emits anymore, it will overflow.  It is completely full, anymore and it will overflow.
Okay, I got 53 seconds. Its white because I think it is right. ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 20, 2010, 08:07:04 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 19, 2010, 05:44:12 PM
It will never fill. An emitter only sets the depth of creeper to its intensity, so each pulse produces less and less creeper, with the limit being 4. Emitters with 0 intensity are a good demonstration of this effect.

Quote from: Mare on October 19, 2010, 08:04:27 PM
It will fill, but not completely, [...] the trench can NEVER be completely full, only mostly full.

These are the correct answers, see more explanation below. I assume mthw2vc didn't completely change his answer when editing, so he earns the first point. If he did change it (and I'm sure both mthw2vc and Mare will be fair about this), the point goes to Mare. In the future I will disallow editing of posts in that sense that I will look at the time of editing to determine who was first, because I can't be online for 24 hours.... See the top post for the final version of the rules and the ranking (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012).

Quote from: Mare on October 19, 2010, 08:04:27 PM
it can never overflow unless the intensity is higher than 5.

This part is not correct. It will completely fill and overflow with any intensity higher than 4, so 4.000001 is enough (although the map editor will only allow 4.1).

Explanation:
When we assume that the trench is completely filled when all 10 squares contain 4 layers of creeper, it will take an infinite amount of seconds, because it will never fill up completely. This is also the reason it won't overflow.

After about 14 seconds you won't see lines in the creeper, but these only indicate relatively big differences in creeper height between cells; the cells in the middle (#5 and #6) only contain about 2 layers of creeper at that moment.
After about 1 minute it seems the creeper in the center cells has reached level 5 (so 4 layers) when you look at the creeper level gauge by hovering your mouse pointer over these squares, but that's a limitation of your display. In fact it never reaches level 5, but approaches it asymptotically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptote).

To understand this you have to imagine how the flow of creeper works:

Note: a frame in CW1 is 1/36th of a second.


Square (from left to right):12345678910
At start of map:0000000000
After 1 second:4000000004
After 1 second + 1 frame:2200000022
After 1 second + 2 frames:1.51.51000011.51.5
After 1 second + 3 frames:1.251.2510.5000.511.251.25
After 1 second + 4 frames:1.093751.093750.93750.6250.250.250.6250.93751.093751.09375
After 1 second + 5 frames:etc.
After 2 seconds:4........................4

Every second the first and last cell become 4 again. The following frames the other cells will keep equalizing and may finally become 3.999999999, but will never reach exactly 4.0.

For this example I have processed the cells from the inside to the outside. CW probably processes all cells from left to right (and top to bottom, but that's not applicable here). In fact the creeper only get updated every 7 frames and each neighbor just receives 1/8th of the contents of the original cell, but this doesn't change anything about the rationale behind for this question.

This was the theoretical answer. The practical answer is a little different, because CW won't be able to store an infinite amount of digits behind the decimal point. Let's assume 16 digits are stored for this variable, then 3.99999999999999995 will be rounded to 4.0, but this will still take a very long time.

Now, could you have tested this with a testmap? Yes! Mortars target the deepest location within range, see below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1661;image)

Even after several minutes the mortars still target the outer cells (regardless of their position relative to the trench). This proves that these cells still contain more creeper than the inner cells, although the elevation gauge seems to indicate that all squares contain 4 layers of creeper.

I will post the next question tomorrow (and this won't be a 'tricky' one).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 20, 2010, 01:38:04 PM
that was mean...  :-[
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 20, 2010, 02:40:18 PM
Quote from: ontheworld on October 20, 2010, 01:38:04 PM
that was mean...  :-[

It may seem a bit tricky, but it's useful to understand how the creeper flows and what the implications are, especially when creating maps.

The next question won't be tricky at all. I'll try to post it tonight. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 20, 2010, 06:15:24 PM
Question 2 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on October 21, 2010, 12:10:27 AM
Either E or F and if I can only choose one then E as it always happens to me.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 12:24:50 AM
Events A to G all occur within this one minute. You're supposed to give a number (amount of energy per second needed). Please reread the question.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 08:37:28 AM
I have a received a few questions by PM and chat about Q2, so let me clarify:

- It's a minute in mid-game (because there's already a lot of creeper on the map).
- You can assume the weapons were already charged at the start of this minute (probably not completely, because they were already firing).
- You can assume there were already packets on their way to the weapons (for the same reason).
- You can assume the weapons will be charged just as much at the end of this minute and that just as many packets will be on their way at this moment.
- You can assume the mortar is halfway during its reload cycle at the start of this minute.
- You can assume no energy is wasted due to redundant SAM missiles and such.
- This is not a trick question, although you will need some exact data about the energy consumption of your weapons.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on October 21, 2010, 10:44:40 AM
So just to be sure: The weapons have to have the same amount of energy at the end of the minute as in the beginning.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 10:52:09 AM
Quote from: Sqaz on October 21, 2010, 10:44:40 AM
So just to be sure: The weapons have to have the same amount of energy at the end of the minute as in the beginning.

Quote from: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 08:37:28 AM
You can assume the weapons will be charged just as much at the end of this minute and that just as many packets will be on their way at this moment.

So, yes. ;) The weapons are already firing, so you can assume a steady and continuous flow of packets that won't influence your answer.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Siccles on October 21, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
5.16 energy/sec
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
Quote from: Siccles on October 21, 2010, 10:54:51 AM
5.16 energy/sec

Incorrect.

PS: very nice to see you back here at the forums! :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 21, 2010, 11:16:11 AM
I have no idea at all , so i just gonna guess for 32,3 =P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 21, 2010, 11:16:11 AM
32,3

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on October 21, 2010, 12:01:49 PM
Thanks a lot  ;D


Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
During exactly 1 minute of gameplay the following things happen:
A. 1 blaster is capping an emitter with 1.2 intensity and 0.5 second interval
B. 1 blaster is capping an emitter with 1.5 intensity and 0.4 second interval
C. 3 SAMs intercept 5 incoming spores of 1.8 intensity
D. 1 blaster intercepts 2 incoming spores of 1.8 intensity
E. 1 blaster fires continuously from a tiny island surrounded by a very deep pool of creeper
F. 1 mortar fires continuously into another deep pool of creeper
G. 2 drones recharge completely

All weapons used for events A to G are different weapons and don't interfere with each other in any way. They won't starve and no upgrades have been applied. What is the minimum amount of energy you need to generate per second to finish this minute with exactly the same amount of energy in store as you started? The answer has to be exactly correct (one decimal).

A: Blasters use 1/5 energy per shot, and the emitter can be capped so: (1/0.5)/5= 0.4 energy/second
B: Same so: (1/0.4)/5= 0.5 energy/second
C: 4 energy needed per spore so in total 20 energy needed= 20/60 = 0.33... energy/second
D: The two spores can be one-shotted so (2/5)/60 = 0.0066... energy/second.
E: a blaster shoots once every 7 frames so will shoot 36(frame rate of CW)*60/7 times in total 308.57 so it'll shoot 308 times using 308/5=61.6/60=1.0266... energy/second
F: Mortars shoot (according to you in another post) once every 103 frames that's 36*60/103=20.97 times so only 20 times using 3.4 energy per shot so that's about 20*3.4=68/60=1.133... energy second
G: One drone is 24 energy so 48energy/60 is 0.8... energy/second

Answer: Combined that is 4.2 energy needed
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on October 21, 2010, 12:01:49 PM
Answer: Combined that is 4.2 energy needed

Correct! :) One point for you.

My way of calculating (which comes to the same thing):

A. The emitter emits 120 times, making the blaster fire 120 times, using 24 packets.
B. The emitter emits 150 times, making the blaster fire 150 times, using 30 packets
C. The SAMs fire 5 times, using 20 packets.
D. The blaster fires 2 times, using 0.4 packets.
E. The blaster fires 308 times, using 61.6 packets.
F. The mortar fires 20 times, using 68 packets.
G. The two drones use 48 packets to recharge.

Total: 24 + 30 + 20 + 0.4 + 61.6 + 68 + 48 = 252 ammo packets

252 energy / 60 seconds = 4.2 energy per second

I will post the next question next week, because I also want to play the tournament (and win it ;)).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 21, 2010, 04:08:41 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on October 21, 2010, 12:01:49 PM
Answer: Combined that is 4.2 energy needed

Correct! :) One point for you.

My way of calculating (which comes to the same thing):

A. The emitter emits 120 times, making the blaster fire 120 times, using 24 packets.
B. The emitter emits 150 times, making the blaster fire 150 times, using 30 packets
C. The SAMs fire 5 times, using 20 packets.
D. The blaster fires 2 times, using 0.4 packets.
E. The blaster fires 308 times, using 61.6 packets.
F. The mortar fires 20 times, using 68 packets.
G. The two drones use 48 packets to recharge.

Total: 24 + 30 + 20 + 0.4 + 61.6 + 68 + 48 = 252 ammo packets

252 energy / 60 seconds = 4.2 energy per second

I will post the next question next week, because I also want to play the tournament (and win it ;)).
*BUZZER*

Incorrect. Here's a little secret (Which I was going to reveal when I got done testing it properly): The energy ticker doesn't advance at the same rate as the seconds ticker. It actually advances closer to every 0.8 seconds. (Building a collector with no upgrades is a good example of this. We can all agree it uses 1 depletion, but it only takes 8 seconds to build.) In the End, it should only require ~3.5 collection, which you would both know if you actually built a test map for this.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 04:59:46 PM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 21, 2010, 04:08:41 PM
Incorrect. Here's a little secret (Which I was going to reveal when I got done testing it properly): The energy ticker doesn't advance at the same rate as the seconds ticker. It actually advances closer to every 0.8 seconds. (Building a collector with no upgrades is a good example of this. We can all agree it uses 1 depletion, but it only takes 8 seconds to build.) In the End, it should only require ~3.4 collection, which you would both know if you actually built a test map for this.

I did build a testmap, several actually. This is how I determined the amount of frames it takes for a blaster to fire. ;) What I did: I filled 4 storage units so I had 100 energy. Then I disconnected OC from the network by flying it, so it was only connected to the 4 storage units, a relay and a blaster. Then I timed how long it would take for the blaster to empty 100 units of energy without landing OC (which would generate energy). Of course I used CW seconds instead of my own stopwatch. I let the blaster fire at a ridge with creeper flowing down from it (ensuring me there would be creeper to fire at every frame). The data was always consistent. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 21, 2010, 05:07:01 PM
That isn't what I meant and I don't doubt your data for blaster and mortar firing rates. However, if you built a test map to confirm your numbers for this question, you would realize that you end up with a lot of extra energy at 4.2 collection. 3.5 collection is sufficient.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 05:15:39 PM
I'm not sure what you exactly mean. The depletion display only shows a rounded number (with increments of 0.5) and is averaged over a full second, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=838.0), so this is not something you want to be looking at for exact numbers. It could however very well be that I misunderstand you, so please elaborate, because I find this very interesting and I'm convinced you know a lot about it.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
After our interesting discussion in chat I have done some testing and I found that 10 reactors deliver roughly 2020 energy per 10 minutes, while you would expect this to be 1800, as each reactor is supposed to generate 0.3 energy per second. Please note that it's hard to get exact data, as I explained in my previous post. This is why I tested over a rather long period of time by flying OC over 10 reactors, 120 storage units and a bunch of relays.

Clearly the energy collection numbers are not per second as you already indicated, but per 1800/2020 = 0.89 seconds. This equals about 32/36 seconds, which could be an indication it has something to do with the frame rate. The maximum number of 32 packets dispersed by Odin City could also be related, as you suggested. Virgil, please feel free to help us out here!

Now, to come back to the original question: does this affect the answer? No.

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 21, 2010, 04:08:41 PM
The energy ticker doesn't advance at the same rate as the seconds ticker. It actually advances closer to every 0.8 seconds.

The weapons use altogether 4.2 energy per second. There is only one way to make sure you don't lose energy: collect 4.2 energy per second. You are right about the fact that the collection display (or ticker as you call it) will probably display less when you are collecting exactly 4.2 energy per second (it will probably say 4.2 * 0.89 = 3.7). I didn't ask however what the display would read or how much energy you would need per 0.89 seconds. I asked how much energy you would need to generate per second and this remains 4.2, so the point still goes to Sqaz. Nevertheless this is very useful information. Thanks for bringing it to our attention! :)

Quote from: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 04:59:46 PM
Building a collector with no upgrades is a good example of this. We can all agree it uses 1 depletion, but it only takes 8 seconds to build.

When looking at this, don't forget that the build packet request rate also matters here. Who says a collector requests exactly one package per second? It is very likely that a similar factor (like 0.89) is used here. Probably all gauges/displays/tickers are measured per 0.89 seconds, so maybe this affects gameplay less than we think. I'm glad CW2 will use 30 frames per second, so we won't be dealing with these kind of issues! ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: knucracker on October 21, 2010, 10:19:08 PM
Indeed... you figured out the sub-rhythm that CW1 uses.... namely 32.  Some things (like what you found) are set on a 32 frame cycle.  Note that nothing is ever really based on seconds.  That's just a shorthand used when talking about things.  Everything in the game is based on frame counts.

Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 10:45:36 PM
You've got to love that number! ;) I know I do....

Well, assuming everything dances to the same rhythm it doesn't change anything. It only means that when we like to express amounts of energy collected or depleted per second, we should multiply the display values by 36/32 = 1.125.

Thanks again! :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on October 22, 2010, 01:15:34 AM
 >:( I DUN KNUW!!!

lol jk But really, I have no clue.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 22, 2010, 01:20:58 AM
Quote from: Blaze on October 22, 2010, 01:15:34 AM
>:( I DUN KNUW!!!

lol jk But really, I have no clue.

Please don't post when you have no clue. The answer has been given anyway....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Aurzel on October 22, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
wut 9000?! there's no way that can be right!!!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Aurzel on October 23, 2010, 07:37:52 PM
you can stop now kam lol
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 24, 2010, 07:52:58 AM
hey the pic is smaller!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Karsten75 on October 24, 2010, 12:37:56 PM
Are you like 9 years old Kamron?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Karsten75 on October 24, 2010, 01:19:12 PM
My apologies to all 9-year olds. They are more mature than you.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kamron3 on October 24, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on October 24, 2010, 01:19:12 PM
My apologies to all 9-year olds. They are more mature than you.
loltroll
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 24, 2010, 03:08:35 PM
but it's true... My 8 year old matthew is, anyways
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 26, 2010, 07:18:10 AM
Question 3 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 26, 2010, 08:25:21 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
Question 3:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1693;image)

How much energy collection would be displayed on your screen when 3 decimals would be used behind the decimal point?
Green squares: (Assuming I don't miscount anything):

49 41 42 43 44 39
41 43 43 40 42 39
40 41 43 43 41 43
44 39 41 43 44 43

Added up, that's 1011 (A little under a third of the screen). Each of these is worth 0.004 energy without any upgrades, so that's 4.044. However, the city itself contributes another 0.6 energy because it's on the ground. (If there are reactors hidden where I can't see them, I will be angry)
My final answer is 4.644 collection. (Unless you have the 10% more energy upgrade, in which case it would be 5.108 rounded the the nearest thousandth)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Karsten75 on October 26, 2010, 08:29:19 AM
Since CW only displays 1 decimal, how do you propose to prove the answer?

We know from prior discussions that each square under a collector generates .004 energy, but as with a number of other things, we've seen that theory and practice do not always correspond. For instance, in one prior discussion, it became apparent that collector squares covered by creeper does generate energy, even though they are not supposed to. In another, that the terrain is not recalculated after a wall breaks down.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 26, 2010, 08:40:07 AM
Observational data I have gathered matches my calculations exactly. The same goes for data relayed to me by others.
If you have exactly 3000 green squares and the city landed, you have 12.6 collection without reactors, precisely what I would expect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 26, 2010, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 26, 2010, 08:25:21 AM
My final answer is 4.644 collection.

Correct! :) 1 more point for you. (And of course I don't hide reactors or stack items without saying so. ;))

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1700;image)

When counting the squares not collecting energy you'll find:

Row 1: 0 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 10 = 36
Row 2: 8 + 6 + 6 + 9 + 7 + 10 = 46
Row 3: 9 + 8 + 6 + 6 + 8 + 6 = 43
Row 4: 5 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 5 + 6 = 40

This makes a total of 165 squares (out of 24 x 7 x 7 = 1176) not collecting energy.

This means (1176 - 165) x 0.004 = 1011 x 0.004 = 4.044 energy is collected from the surface.
Add the 2 reactors inside Odin City and this makes a total of 4.644 energy (per 0.89 seconds).

Quote from: Karsten75 on October 26, 2010, 08:29:19 AM
Since CW only displays 1 decimal, how do you propose to prove the answer?

We know from prior discussions that each square under a collector generates .004 energy, but as with a number of other things, we've seen that theory and practice do not always correspond.

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 26, 2010, 08:40:07 AM
Observational data I have gathered matches my calculations exactly. The same goes for data relayed to me by others.
If you have exactly 3000 green squares and the city landed, you have 12.6 collection without reactors, precisely what I would expect.

Exactly. I have also tested this and you can notice the point where for instance 3.996 (displayed as 3.9) flips to 4.0 after adding 1 block.

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 26, 2010, 08:40:07 AM
For instance, in one prior discussion, it became apparent that collector squares covered by creeper does generate energy, even though they are not supposed to. In another, that the terrain is not recalculated after a wall breaks down.

These exceptions are correct (I found both cases myself ;)), but are both not applicable in this case. Only the LOS (line-of-sight) function applies here.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 26, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
I dont think the center of the city has energy , but i dont know this game as you do , so it still might be right =P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 26, 2010, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 26, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
I dont think the center of the city has energy , but i dont know this game as you do , so it still might be right =P

It does, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=246.msg4526#msg4526).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on October 26, 2010, 11:51:28 AM
Thanks Mthw2vc for not even giving me the chance to watch the question ;D.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 28, 2010, 11:35:31 PM
Question 4 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kamron3 on October 29, 2010, 12:12:49 AM
4.69 squares per second
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 12:31:35 AM
Quote from: Kamron3 on October 29, 2010, 12:12:49 AM
4.69 squares per second

Incorrect.

And please review the definition of an integer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer). ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on October 29, 2010, 02:55:13 AM
11 squares per second
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Echo51 on October 29, 2010, 03:18:44 AM
13, cause its mah lucky number sleven
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: Nate Dog on October 29, 2010, 02:55:13 AM
11 squares per second

Incorrect.

Quote from: Echo51 on October 29, 2010, 03:18:44 AM
13, cause its mah lucky number sleven

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Aurzel on October 29, 2010, 05:38:11 AM
are you sure it's not 11? because that's what I found
it'd have to be 10 then
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 29, 2010, 05:43:43 AM
Then i guess 10 then =P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 29, 2010, 07:56:38 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
Question 4:
How many squares does a packet travel per second horizontally or vertically when 4 speed nodes are connected to your network? You can round your answer to the nearest integer (as I don't have the exact data either).
Is that map squares? In theory, it would be ~14, but in practice, 2 packets dispatch ~11 map squares apart if you have 4 speed nodes (Actually a little more). Given that packets dispatch 32 frames apart for building without the 20% faster building upgrade and no deficit, the answer appears to round to ~13. You've already rejected that one, but you said yourself that you don't have exact data yet.

The actual packet movement speed appears to be 1.5+0.5 for every speed node in pixels/frame (This needs more testing), although I think you're using what virgil said, 2+0.5 per speed node, which would yield 144 pixels, or 14.4 map squares. Rounded, that would be 14.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Aurzel on October 29, 2010, 05:38:11 AM
it'd have to be 10 then

Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 29, 2010, 05:43:43 AM
Then i guess 10 then =P

Both incorrect. And please note that giving the same answer as a previous person is rather useless. :P

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 29, 2010, 07:56:38 AM
Rounded, that would be 14.

Correct! :) And again a point for you.

Nice to read about the theoretical speed, because I've been wondering why it would be 7 without the speed nodes (4 speed nodes double the speed) and how this would be related to the initial speed of '2'. Pixels per frame could very well be the answer here; this indeed needs more testing. Please let me know if you find more info about this!

The spacing between 2 packets can't be used to determine its speed however, as we don't have exact data about the packet request rate. I used totem packets for testing, so the build speed upgrade doesn't apply here, but the packet speed is the same for every type of packet.

Not only in (your) theory, but also in practise the packet speed comes to 7 squares per second, or 14 squares per seconds with 4 speed nodes. See the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1718;image)

Have a look at the 6th packet (the first packets can't be used because they were not up to full speed yet, due to Odin City being slow to scan its network for speed nodes, as you can see by their spacing). Currently the 6th packet is at the first relay at the 0:02 second mark. The distance between the first and the last relay is exactly 700 squares (11 x 60 + 10 x 4). Now have a look at the finish line:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1720;image)

The 6th packet finishes the track at the 0:52 second mark, so in about 50 seconds. This means its speed is 700 / 50 = 14 squares per second. Without the speed nodes it would finish in about 100 seconds, resulting in a default speed of 7 squares per second. My initial question was how many seconds it would take for a packet to travel 700 squares with 12 speed nodes (quad speed), but my results were too far off from the expected answer of 25 seconds to be precise enough, so I had to change it to avoid lengthy discussions.

Edit: see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28562#msg28562) for a more detailed explanation why the speed will relatively decrease with more speed nodes.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on October 29, 2010, 10:58:20 AM
Oh i guess i thought it was an #2 post so the answer was'nt valid =P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
I think Aurzel referred to Nate Dog's answer. You can only get (rather) precise results however when testing for a longer interval of time, so over a longer distance.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 01:28:12 PM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 29, 2010, 07:56:38 AM
The actual packet movement speed appears to be 1.5+0.5 for every speed node in pixels/frame (This needs more testing), although I think you're using what virgil said, 2+0.5 per speed node

Quote from: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 10:53:13 AM
Nice to read about the theoretical speed, because I've been wondering why it would be 7 without the speed nodes (4 speed nodes double the speed) and how this would be related to the initial speed of '2'. Pixels per frame could very well be the answer here; this indeed needs more testing.

After some more testing it indeed seems packets travel approximately 2 pixels per frame. I don't think the 32 frame subrhythm applies here. If there's a subrhythm used here, it's seems to be close to 35 frames (which would explain the very slight deviation when using more speed nodes).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 29, 2010, 04:47:36 PM
Also remember the effect that the packets must stop on every network node, this explains some of the deviation, especially when using several speed nodes.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
Yeah, I considered that, but this recalculation of the packet path is all done within a frame, so that frame just takes a little longer to process I guess, but shouldn't influence the travel time. The application just runs a little slower. Unless a packet really stops at a node for 1 frame of course; I could test this by replacing the relays by collectors, thus doubling the amount of intermediate nodes. I'll attach my testmap so you can experiment as well if you like.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 12:48:29 AM
Question 5 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)

I probably won't be able to give the answer before the end of the weekend, so you'll have some time to experiment and think about it....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kamron3 on October 30, 2010, 02:07:38 AM
14.38
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 02:08:35 AM
Quote from: Kamron3 on October 30, 2010, 02:07:38 AM
14.38

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kamron3 on October 30, 2010, 02:08:59 AM
Curses, foiled again!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: J on October 30, 2010, 03:57:22 AM
8
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 04:22:12 AM
Quote from: J on October 30, 2010, 03:57:22 AM
8

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Echo51 on October 30, 2010, 05:21:00 AM
4, as far as i remember
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 05:21:36 AM
Quote from: Echo51 on October 30, 2010, 05:21:00 AM
4, as far as i remember

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Siccles on October 30, 2010, 05:30:44 AM
20
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 05:52:21 AM
Quote from: Siccles on October 30, 2010, 05:30:44 AM
20

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 30, 2010, 08:17:42 AM
If I remember correctly, it can do up to 1 unit damage over 6 cells in one shot, each of which requires 0.2 energy. That would be 30 ccc/energy.

However, as always, theory does not always equal reality. They can sometimes cause damage over more than 6 squares. I've seen as many as eight at once, which would imply 40 (See the attached pic for an example of 1 blaster shot doing this)

(I've also seen what looks like 9 when a blaster is continuously firing, but I think that's just the effects of the game not rendering every frame when I want it to and overlapping [the effects of] multiple blaster shots.)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 30, 2010, 08:17:42 AM
That would be 30 ccc/energy.

[...]

which would imply 40

You can only give 1 answer. You better be quick, because anybody posting after you might beat you to it....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on October 30, 2010, 08:47:33 AM
Hmm, you didn't complain last time I gave two answers... I think you're looking for 30, but I've seen that it is not always the case.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 30, 2010, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on October 30, 2010, 08:47:33 AM
Hmm, you didn't complain last time I gave two answers...

I guess you were lucky. ;)

Edit: you concluded yourself that your first answer had already been rejected.

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 30, 2010, 08:47:33 AM
I think you're looking for 30

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on October 30, 2010, 01:21:41 PM
50 ccc/energy

Edit: just changed the units, I had mistyped it the first time. The answer remains the same :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 30, 2010, 01:54:37 PM
EDIT: nope, gonna look into it before answering

soo... results i found of damage in one shot:

1 1 1
1 2 1
1 1 1

wich is 10*5 is indeed 50 ccc/energy packet
edit: i can't answer anymore but new rsults:

1 1 1
0 2 0
1 1 1
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: thepenguin on October 30, 2010, 04:41:12 PM
45 cubic cells of creeper ot most
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Aurzel on October 31, 2010, 05:57:31 AM
i guess you're right about needing a longer interval of time to test it out since i tested it several times by using a one second interval and my results varied from a little more than 10 to a little less than 12 although i am sure i did check it on the second +/- a couple of frames
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 31, 2010, 09:02:05 AM
Quote from: Nate Dog on October 30, 2010, 01:21:41 PM
50 ccc/energy

Incorrect.

Quote from: ontheworld on October 30, 2010, 01:54:37 PM
indeed 50 ccc/energy packet

Incorrect.

Quote from: thepenguin on October 30, 2010, 04:41:12 PM
45 cubic cells of creeper

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mniip on October 31, 2010, 03:06:16 PM
When blast attacks on full empty area, it decreases creeper like there:
111
121
111

I think 10 ccc per blast.
Fully armed blaster can blast 50 times.
To Arm blaster fully you need 10 energies.
therefore Blaster can decrease up to 50 CCC per energy.


PS: We can reach 50 ccc/energy when we but blaster into creeper that is deeper than 2.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on October 31, 2010, 05:31:30 PM
we just gave 50ccc to be wrong, and he wants specific answers
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on October 31, 2010, 06:27:28 PM
Quote from: mniip on October 31, 2010, 03:06:16 PM
up to 50 CCC per energy.

Incorrect, as you can see in my previous post.

Please note that the maximum damage can also be done without putting the blaster into deep creeper. I will prove the correct answer after it has been given.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 01, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
After some empirical testing I saw at max 8 squares can be damaged so the answer is 40ccc.

Which, actually, has been said 2 times already but never as a first answer.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on November 01, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 01, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
After some empirical testing I saw at max 8 squares can be damaged so the answer is 40ccc.

Which, actually, has been said 2 times already but never as a first answer.

i was gonna, but decided to look for myself... i'm such a douchebag from time to time...
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 01, 2010, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 01, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
After some empirical testing I saw at max 8 squares can be damaged so the answer is 40ccc.

Correct. :) One point for you.

Quote from: Sqaz on November 01, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
Which, actually, has been said 2 times already but never as a first answer.

I think only once (by mthw2vc), but unfortunately (for him), he sticked to his other answer.

Explanation:
A blaster can do damage to a maximum of 8 cells, see below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1752;image) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1754;image)

This will happen when the creeper is up to 1 elevation level deep. On the left you see a blaster firing into very thin creeper and damaging 8 cells. The damage of this shot is probably less than 1 ccc (8 x 0.1 ccc). On the right you see a blaster firing into creeper of exactly 1 elevation layer deep. The damage of this shot is the maximum you can get: 8 ccc (8 x 1 ccc).

A blaster will not always damage 8 cells however, see below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1756;image) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1758;image)

This will happen when the creeper is more than 1 elevation level deep. On the left you see a blaster firing into a pool with creeper of about 1.8 layers deep. The shot does the maximum of 2 ccc damage to the cell it targets, plus a maximum of 1 ccc to 6 neighboring cells, so in this case the damage is 1.8 + 6 x 1 = 7.8 ccc. On the right you see a blaster firing into creeper of exactly 2 layers deep. Again the shot does the maximum damage of 2 ccc to the target cell, plus 1 ccc damage to 6 neighboring cells, which makes a total of 8 ccc (again max. damage for 1 shot). When the creeper would be deeper than 2 layers, let's say 3 elevation levels deep, a shot would do exactly the same thing, leaving some creeper in all damaged cells. The maximum damage of 2 ccc for the target cell is also the reason spores with an intensity higher than 2 can't be taken out by a blaster with 1 shot when hitting the surface.

When you drop a blaster into the creeper this works exactly the same way, see below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1760;image)

On the left you see a blaster dropping into shallow creeper; 8 cells are damaged in this pattern:

111
110
111


On the right you see a blaster dropping into deeper creeper; 7 cells are damaged in this pattern:

111
020
111


One blaster shot costs 0.2 energy, so it can fire 5 times on 1 unit of energy, which makes the maximum damage per unit of energy 5 x 8 = 40 ccc. When you realize that a mortar shot does a maximum damage of 42.4 ccc per unit of energy, you can easily conclude that dropping blasters into a pool of creeper is just as effective as using mortars. Of course this isn't the case when you let them target shallow creeper at the edge of a plain.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on November 01, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
i didn't say it in my edit, but with my calculation+ new test results it would have been 40 =/
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 01, 2010, 05:53:57 PM
Quote from: ontheworld on November 01, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
i didn't say it in my edit, but with my calculation+ new test results it would have been 40 =/

Yeah, with some testing this answer could have been found rather easily. I even thought this was the easiest question up to now. It's always a trade off: do you take the time for some testing and also the risk that someone else posts the answer just before you, or do you give it your best shot as fast as possible? Both can work....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 03, 2010, 01:29:05 PM
Question 6 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 03, 2010, 02:12:00 PM







Emitter
Start
(seconds)
Interval
(seconds)
Intensity
(ccc)
# blasters needed
without firing
rate upgrade
# blasters needed
with firing
rate upgrade






1
0.1
0.1
1
1
2
2
1.1
0.1
1
2
2
3
0.1
0.2
2
1
1
4
1.1
0.2
2
1
1
5
0.1
1.0
10
2
1
6
1.1
1.0
10
2
1
7
0.1
1.1
11
2
2
8
1.1
1.1
11
2
2
9
0.1
3.5
35
3
2
10
1.1
3.5
35
3
2






Total:
A: 19
B: 16




So A= 19 and B= 16

This is all done through empirical testing, and even though some of the results are strange it should be perfect :P.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on November 03, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
do the grids only count H and V or also D?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: thepenguin on November 03, 2010, 02:36:27 PM
11 blasters either way
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: J on November 03, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
A:18 and B:14
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 12:02:38 PM
Quote from: ontheworld on November 03, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
do the grids only count H and V or also D?

It would be pretty hard to have a distance of exactly 3 diagonally, because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem). :P

Quote from: thepenguin on November 03, 2010, 02:36:27 PM
11 blasters either way

Incorrect.

Quote from: J on November 03, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
A:18 and B:14

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 12:28:28 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 03, 2010, 02:12:00 PM







Emitter
Start
(seconds)
Interval
(seconds)
Intensity
(ccc)
# blasters needed
without firing
rate upgrade
# blasters needed
with firing
rate upgrade






1
0.1
0.1
1
1
2
2
1.1
0.1
1
2
2
3
0.1
0.2
2
1
1
4
1.1
0.2
2
1
1
5
0.1
1.0
10
2
1
6
1.1
1.0
10
2
1
7
0.1
1.1
11
2
2
8
1.1
1.1
11
2
2
9
0.1
3.5
35
3
2
10
1.1
3.5
35
3
2






Total:
A: 19
B: 16




So A= 19 and B= 16

This is all done through empirical testing, and even though some of the results are strange it should be perfect :P.

Correct. :) Again one point for you. The race for the first place stays very exciting! (Third place is still available.... ;))

Some results indeed seem a little weird, but there's a good explanation for it now I understand better how CW works. Of course it again has to do with the fact that CW is a frame based application.

Explanation:
I've been researching the exact capping conditions for a long time, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=920.msg7964#msg7964). Virgil's words didn't make that much sense to me at that time, but now they do. Let's compare a few of the strange cases:

1. Emitters 1 and 2 seem very similar. Same intensity and interval, only emitter 2 starts 1 second later. So why does emitter 2 need an addition blaster to cap it without the firing rate upgrade? Blasters can't fire every frame; they fire once every 7 frames. CW also doesn't use seconds to measure time, so an interval of 0.1 seconds is translated into an amount of frames (3.6 frames, rounded up or down, I don't know, but I'm sure it has to do something with the fact that 2 * 3.6 is close to 7). This means sometimes a blaster will be in sync with an emitter and sometimes it won't (beats me how this is implemented exactly, because you would expect a shift of phase). This means the moment an emitter starts does determine how many blasters are needed to cap it!

2. Let's have a look at emitters 1 and 2 again, this time with the upgrade used. Now a blaster fires every 6 frames, causing blaster 1 to get out of sync with the emitter and not being able to cap it anymore, while it fires faster! Weird, huh? This means applying the +15% firing rate upgrade is not always to your advantage.

3. All other data seems pretty logical. Emitters 5, 6, 9 and 10 need 1 blaster less when the upgrade has been applied, but in most cases it doesn't matter. I'm sure more weird situations can be found, but that would require a lot more testing (or understanding the exact way CW translates time into frames).

I've attached my testmap for people who like to see this for themselves without doing too much effort:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1782;image)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on November 04, 2010, 03:24:28 PM
i just wanted to make sure going one left and up screw up becuase of diagonals...

but yeah, now i'm too late
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 03:29:32 PM
Sqaz was the first to reply, so he would have gotten the point anyway.

I'll try to post the next question tonight. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 07:42:47 PM
Question 7 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Fisherck on November 04, 2010, 08:31:48 PM
I would build a SAM in area A, because with the spore attack coming in one and a half minutes, you will need defence from that and you have about maxed out your energy if not gone a little over. With three areas to protect you better start now and might as well start with the most important are (the city).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 04, 2010, 08:36:32 PM
Quote from: Fisherck on November 04, 2010, 08:31:48 PM
I would build a SAM in area A, because with the spore attack coming in one and a half minutes, you will need defence from that and you have about maxed out your energy if not gone a little over. With three areas to protect you better start now and might as well start with the most important are (the city).

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on November 04, 2010, 10:44:09 PM
There are about 5 answers I can think of, but I'm gonna go with a storage unit in A (doesn't matter where) since it appears more packets are being requested than OC can supply.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on November 05, 2010, 04:02:09 AM
I would build an Relay in section E , Because spores usally attack them first ,
and if it does'nt i got connection to move forward =)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 05, 2010, 04:23:27 AM
I'd go for a storage unit in C, cause only 16 packets can be delivered now instead of the 13 you've got energy for. Sector C that's because I'd use to open spaces in A,B,F to build a SAM, or, dependeing on their place, move a blaster there to hold off the spores.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: J on November 05, 2010, 10:41:25 AM
Before I give an answer, what are the location of the free spaces
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 05, 2010, 05:32:17 PM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 05, 2010, 04:02:09 AM
I would build an Relay in section E , Because spores usally attack them first ,
and if it does'nt i got connection to move forward =)

Incorrect.

Quote from: Sqaz on November 05, 2010, 04:23:27 AM
I'd go for a storage unit in C, cause only 16 packets can be delivered now instead of the 13 you've got energy for. Sector C that's because I'd use to open spaces in A,B,F to build a SAM, or, dependeing on their place, move a blaster there to hold off the spores.

Incorrect.

Quote from: J on November 05, 2010, 10:41:25 AM
Before I give an answer, what are the location of the free spaces

Does not matter.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 05, 2010, 06:02:06 PM
Quote from: Nate Dog on November 04, 2010, 10:44:09 PM
There are about 5 answers I can think of, but I'm gonna go with a storage unit in A (doesn't matter where) since it appears more packets are being requested than OC can supply.

Correct. :) One point for you.

Explanation:
18 weapons are constantly firing with +15% firing rate, requiring at least 20 energy (per 0.89 seconds).
5 weapons are being built with +20% building speed, requiring about 6 energy (per 0.89 seconds).
1 drone will be recharging soon.

You are currently collecting 23.7 energy (per 0.89 seconds), which is obviously not enough to support the demand, so you are already having quite a deficit. One thing is worse however: Odin City can only disperse 20 packets (per 0.89 seconds) because it can only store 20 packets without a storage unit. This means 3.7 energy is lost (every 0.89 seconds!), causing an even worse deficit. When you don't solve this quickly you will be losing your caps....

Best thing to do is to build a storage unit as soon as possible and as close to Odin City as possible (so it will be finished quickly). This will allow Odin City to disperse up to 32 packets. In the meanwhile you probably want to deactivate all weapons currently being built. The storage unit will be finished in time to be able to build a few SAMs before the spores arrive.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 06, 2010, 05:14:04 AM
Actually that depends on the amount of free spaces, you mentioned only one, so if you'd place the storage in sector A you wouldn't be able to build SAMs there and would probably lose your storage and some reactors causing an even bigger deficit.

This of course depends on the free amount of space, so that might have been clarified a bit in the question.

No complains though, Nate deserves to win.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 06, 2010, 12:23:37 PM
The question said at least one free space. Besides that you could also build the SAM protecting section A on the other side of the wall (section D) as the spores will be coming from the south and the range upgrade has been applied. Finally getting hit by 1 spore of 1.5 intensity is less worse than losing all caps.

I'll try to post the next question on Monday. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 12, 2010, 03:25:58 AM
Question 8 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 12, 2010, 03:43:48 AM
I would have to say the depth of both pools is 0.1 because
both blasters and mortars have the same damage "radius",
right?

And seeing as the Creeper instantly replenishes any damage done,
the mortar would win damage per second at almost every depth
level.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 12, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Colin on November 12, 2010, 03:43:48 AM
the depth of both pools is 0.1

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 12, 2010, 03:51:53 AM
I guess I wasted my guess for this month on this question, huh.  ;D
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 12, 2010, 03:58:20 AM
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 12, 2010, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
Question 8:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1859;image)

A blaster and a mortar fire from an island into two equal pools with creeper. The entire bottom of both pools is covered with emitters of 0.1 second interval, so all damage done is negated before the next shot occurs. After very accurate measuring it turns out that both weapons do precisely the same amount of damage per second. What is the exact depth of the creeper in both pools? (You are allowed to round to one decimal.) Tip: it doesn't matter if the fire rate upgrade has been applied, but it makes calculating a lot easier.... ;)
Without the firing rate upgrade applied, A blaster fires every 7 frames and a mortar every 105. The blaster causes 8 damage per shot and fires 15 shots for every one the mortar fires (105/7). The mortar shots should therefore cause 120 (8*15) damage apiece, and affect 36 squares each, which would mean the depth is 3 1/3, which, rounded to the nearest tenth of a unit, would be 3.3.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 12, 2010, 01:19:28 PM
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 12, 2010, 07:32:37 AM
Without the firing rate upgrade applied, A blaster fires every 7 frames and a mortar every 105. The blaster causes 8 damage per shot and fires 15 shots for every one the mortar fires (105/7). The mortar shots should therefore cause 120 (8*15) damage apiece, and affect 36 squares each, which would mean the depth is 3 1/3, which, rounded to the nearest tenth of a unit, would be 3.3.

Correct. :) One more point for you.

In other words (and using the fire rate upgrade to get round numbers, as both weapons are affected in the same way):
A blaster does 8 damage per shot and fires 6 times per second, doing 8 x 6 = 48 ccc damage per second.
A mortar does 36 x Creeper depth (D) damage per shot and fires 0.4 times per second, doing 14.4D damage per second (max D=4, so max damage = 57.6 ccc per sec).
D = 48 / 14.4 = 31/3 (rounded 3.3).

This means a blaster does more damage per second in pools up to 3.3 elevation levels of creeper, while a mortar is more effective in pools with 3.4 or more elevation levels of creeper. On most maps pools never contain that much creeper, so a blaster is almost always a better choice when the edges of the pool contain just as much creeper as the center of the pool.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 13, 2010, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
When looking at this, don't forget that the build packet request rate also matters here. Who says a collector requests exactly one package per second? It is very likely that a similar factor (like 0.89) is used here. Probably all gauges/displays/tickers are measured per 0.89 seconds, so maybe this affects gameplay less than we think. I'm glad CW2 will use 30 frames per second, so we won't be dealing with these kind of issues! ;)
In fact, I'm almost certain that build request is every 0.8333 seconds. See my post here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5146.msg28402#msg28402).

If you can bother, please do check it yourself. This 30 vs. 32 frames for build packet requests has been bothering me for some time and is one of the reasons I joined these forums. (The other two being the history tournament and a bug I wanted to request a fix for. Which you already had!) I've known it for some time and somewhat apply it, when building. Though, of course it only really matters when building many things. Eg. the 3.2 depletion that happens when building three things is noticeably different from 3.0 as in the example in that other thread, while 1.0 and 1.066 (=32/30) doesn't make all that much difference when building, say, a single collector.

EDIT: Thanks for answering in that other thread! (which I totally hijacked)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 13, 2010, 12:28:18 AM
Yeah, I just read that, tested it (yeah, I bother ;)) and commented there (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5146.msg28402#msg28402). Welcome to the forums! :)

It indeed does make a difference when building multiple units simultaneously, especially when expanding your energy collection by building lots of reactors at the start of a map. The only good thing is that having a slight deficit isn't too bad as the last units being built will catch up in the end (although the first ones didn't complete as fast as they should have). I guess using the +20% faster building upgrade will make this effect even a little worse: 3.84 depletion instead of the expected 3.6 (both per 32/36 seconds, to make it as complex as possible :P).

Edit: now I think of it, I already asked questions about this in March this year, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=838.msg7058#msg7058).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 16, 2010, 01:40:23 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 10:53:13 AM
My initial question was how many seconds it would take for a packet to travel 700 squares with 12 speed nodes (quad speed), but my results were too far off from the expected answer of 25 seconds to be precise enough, so I had to change it to avoid lengthy discussions.

Quote from: mthw2vc on October 29, 2010, 04:47:36 PM
Also remember the effect that the packets must stop on every network node, this explains some of the deviation, especially when using several speed nodes.

Quote from: UpperKEES on October 29, 2010, 04:55:30 PM
Yeah, I considered that, but this recalculation of the packet path is all done within a frame, so that frame just takes a little longer to process I guess, but shouldn't influence the travel time. The application just runs a little slower. Unless a packet really stops at a node for 1 frame of course; I could test this by replacing the relays by collectors, thus doubling the amount of intermediate nodes. I'll attach my testmap so you can experiment as well if you like.

Kapoios and I had a nice chat about this unresolved topic and he came up with the probably cause of it: by default a packets travels 2 pixels per frame. Every speed node adds half a pixel to that. Let's set the average distance between collectors and other nodes (except for relays) at 5 blocks (50 pixels) for this example. At default speed this takes 25 frames. At double speed (+4 speed nodes) 13 frames (12.5 rounded up, because it has to stop at the node to recalculate its route, which means you lose half a step each node). At triple speed 9 steps (8.33 rounded up, losing 2/3th step per node). At quad speed 7 steps (6,25 rounded up, losing 3/4th step per node).

The table below shows that the optimal number of speed nodes and the loss of speed really depends on the distance between nodes: (click here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1889;image) to enlarge even more)

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1889;image)

Native English speakers please note: a comma in this table represents a decimal point!

The larger the spacing between nodes, the less loss you have when adding more speed nodes. The average doesn't say that much however; having half of your collectors spaced by 48 pixels and half of them by 56 pixels will have a completely different effect than all collectors spaced by 52 pixels, while their average is the same. In general you can say that having more speed nodes will cause more loss, so building more of them becomes relatively less effective. In fact it does not matter whether you build 21 or 29 speed nodes when your collectors are spaced 5 blocks apart, it will always take 4 frames for a packet to travel to the next node. When using only collectors you shouldn't be building more than 8 speed nodes, because the gain is minimal, so stop overbuilding!

When you build all your collectors in horizontal or vertical lines with a distance of 5 blocks you can clearly see you should never build 3, 5, 7, 8, 10 or 12 speed nodes, because this won't gain you much (if anything at all). When you build relays you'll notice this effect a lot less as not as many stops are required, but building more than 12 speed nodes won't gain you much either in this case.

Another nice thing you can deduct from the above results is that building your collectors alternating slightly diagonally won't cause the loss of speed (while the distance is longer). It often takes the same amount of frames for a packet to travel to the next node and you will gain more energy (due to less overlap). :)

Considering all of this it would be nice when every next speed node you build would cost a little less, let's say -10% of the costs of the previous one. That way it would be beneficial to keep building more of them.

Finally: the stop of the packet at a node to recalculate its route does not affect the speed, as it is all done within the same frame, which always takes 1/36th of a second.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: thepenguin on November 16, 2010, 07:33:07 PM
um, can you put that in terms I can understand
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 16, 2010, 07:36:37 PM
Is it the table or the text you don't understand?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM
Basically what hes saying is that as the game mechanics
are now, there is such a thing as too many speed nodes.  :P

The most efficient numbers of them at the moment
(according to KEES) are NOT these: 3, 5, 7, 8, 10 or 12,
so build 1,2,4,6,9 or 11 nodes for the most efficient use
of energy, and speed over long distances (when using a
fractal collector grid).  :D

(@ KEES, I believe he doesn't understand what your trying
to communicate, because you use paragraphs that are too
long and he doesn't take the time to read them.)  ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: thepenguin on November 16, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
it's the table

EDIT: makes a little more sense when I remember europeans use 1,0 instead of 1.0
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 16, 2010, 08:18:56 PM
Quote from: Colin on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM
Basically what hes saying is that as the game mechanics
are now, there is such a thing as too many speed nodes.  :P

Yep, but of course you can build too much of anything when trying to set a good time, but the above data shows that certain amount of speed nodes hardly gain you any speed. When building even more of them you don't even gain speed at all (which is comparable to building more reactors when you are already collecting 32 energy).

Quote from: Colin on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM
The most efficient numbers of them at the moment
(according to KEES) are NOT these: 3, 5, 7, 8, 10 or 12,
so build 1,2,4,6,9 or 11 nodes for the most efficient use
of energy, and speed over long distances (when using a
fractal collector grid).  :D

Please note that these number only apply when you build your collectors in a square shaped form, like some people do, causing their distance always to be exactly 5 blocks. In reality most people will have a variety in spacing between their collectors and using the average is of no help in this case. When you build all your collectors in diagonals (i.e. 5 blocks to the right and 3 up, resulting in a spacing of 58 pixels) you can see in the table that your loss with 7 or 8 speed nodes isn't that bad.

The most important thing however is realizing that an additional speed node does not have to improve the speed. Look for instance at collectors spaced 5 blocks apart (= 50 pixels; the maximum horizontally and vertically). When you have 6 speed nodes it takes a packet 10 frames to reach the next collector (= 10/36 = ~0.28 sec.). When you build another speed node this trip still takes 10 frames! When you build speed node number 8 you gain 1 frame, so the trip takes 9/36 = 0.25 seconds. This means you have to build 2 speed nodes (total cost 70 energy!) to gain less than 0.03 second per node travelled! Would you do that if you knew it?

Quote from: Colin on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM
(@ KEES, I believe he doesn't understand what your trying
to communicate, because you use paragraphs that are too
long and he doesn't take the time to read them.)  ;)

Hmmm, I think I use about 3-4 sentences per paragraph, which is less than most books do. I guess I have to research these statistics as well now! ;D

Quote from: thepenguin on November 16, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
it's the table

Consider the table something you only use when you like to check my findings, when you are interested in doing some research yourself or when you like to use this info while playing or creating a map.

Quote from: thepenguin on November 16, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
EDIT: makes a little more sense when I remember europeans use 1,0 instead of 1.0

Good point. Yep, we do, like almost every country except for native English speakers. I would have to adjust my regional setting to make Excel display it differently....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 17, 2010, 12:09:39 AM
Question 9 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 17, 2010, 02:13:05 AM
The answer to Question 9 is:

14,706 frames, Or 6:48 + 1 half second.

I came to this conclusion with a test map that I made with a Creeper clock in addition to waiting until the wall broke then I clicked the score button to save my time, I also started the emitters on a 1 second delay and took away 1 second for accuracy. If I didn't get it right, I must not understand why this is a question that UpperKEES posted.  ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 17, 2010, 02:14:35 AM
Quote from: Colin on November 17, 2010, 02:13:05 AM
14,706 frames

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on November 17, 2010, 02:16:51 AM
14,688 frames
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 17, 2010, 02:35:08 AM
Quote from: Nate Dog on November 17, 2010, 02:16:51 AM
14,688 frames

Incorrect.

Edit: correct! This turns out to be the right answer, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28772#msg28772). My apologies!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Karsten75 on November 17, 2010, 07:16:05 PM
Quote from: Colin on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM

(@ KEES, I believe he doesn't understand what your trying
to communicate, because you use paragraphs that are too
long and he doesn't take the time to read them.)  ;)

Frankly, I don't understand it either.  :P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 17, 2010, 07:23:12 PM
Just ask if you're interested; I'm happy to explain some more like I did here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28575#msg28575).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mopa42 on November 17, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
It looks like the game only checks for wall decays about every 7 frames, and that a wall could last anywhere between 14670 and 14676 frames. If I can only give one value not a range, I'll split it in the middle and say 14673 frames.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on November 18, 2010, 12:30:45 AM
9 frames

14698 frames.
An educated guess....
If I win or am close, I will be very surprised...
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 04:26:49 AM
Quote from: mopa42 on November 17, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
14673 frames.

Incorrect.

Quote from: Blaze on November 18, 2010, 12:30:45 AM
14698 frames.
An educated guess....
If I win or am close, I will be very surprised...

Correct! :) Your guess indeed seems very educated, so you can be surprised now! ;) One point for you.

Quote from: Colin on November 17, 2010, 02:13:05 AM
a test map that I made with a Creeper clock

That's indeed the way to test it, see below.

Quote from: mopa42 on November 17, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
It looks like the game only checks for wall decays about every 7 frames

My findings are that the decay is checked for every frame, but the creeper only updates every 8 frames (actually 1/8th of the creeper updates every frame, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=4695.msg24131#msg24131)), so that may have influenced your results when you also used a creeper clock (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=2909).

This time I used a digital creeper clock that was able to display minutes, seconds and frames:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1903;image)

At the top left you see a small basin with a wall element surrounded by 7 crazonium wall elements. The 8th neighboring cell is taken by an emitter that emits almost directly at the start of the game (in frame 3). On top of the wall element I placed a survivor so the game will stop immediately when the wall dissolved.

The row to the right of the basin indicates the minutes passed (from 1 to 10). The section below indicates the seconds passed (1-60) within that minute and the bottom section indicates the amount of frames passed (1-36) within that second.

Now let the testmap (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1907) run for a couple of minutes. The clock is not as accurate as you may hope, because the creeper is only updated every 8 frames as I described above. For that reason you have to use the O = 2 x P script (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=977.0) with a delay of 27 milliseconds (which is slightly less than 1 frame). This enables you to advance the game frame by frame. In theory that is, because it also depends on the speed of the process scheduler of your operating system. In reality about 8 frames are processed for every 5-6 times you tap the O-key, even when the script and CW processes have been set to real-time (don't try this at home kids ;)).

Let the game run until you arrive at 6:47 and pause the game. Now keep advancing by tapping 'O'. About every 5-6 taps you will see the emitters in the frame section of the creeper clock get updated (8 emitters at once), see below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1905;image)

Keep counting your taps after an update of the creeper. The last update will be when the top row of the frame section is completely updated as you can see above. The last 4 emitters only have creeper in the center cell which is noticeable by the square around the emitter. Two more taps with the O-key and you'll see the "SURVIVORS DESTROYED" dialog, which is at 6:48 + 14 frames. Subtract 3 frames because of the initial delay of the emitter dissolving the wall and you get to 6:48 + 11 frames. This adds up to a total of 14699 frames (~408.3 seconds). There is a slight error margin (of 1-2 frames), because the script does not always advance exactly 1 frame per tap, so I count any answer within that margin as correct.

From this we can deduct that:
A wall element with 2 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/2 x 14698 = 7348 frames = ~204.1 seconds.
A wall element with 3 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/3 x 14698 = 4900 frames = ~136.1 seconds.
A wall element with 4 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/4 x 14698 = 3675 frames = ~102.1 seconds.
A wall element with 5 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/5 x 14698 = 2940 frames = ~81.7 seconds.
A wall element with 6 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/6 x 14698 = 2450 frames = ~68.1 seconds.
A wall element with 7 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/7 x 14698 = 2100 frames = ~58.3 seconds.
A wall element with 8 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/8 x 14698 = 1838 frames = ~51.1 seconds.

I have tried the same procedure within a window of 11 frames for every single starting frame of the emitter (ranging from frame 0 to frame 10) and the results came to the same thing every time. When starting 1 frame later, the survivor would die 1 frame (1 tap) later, thus proving the check for a dissolved wall element is done every frame.

An interesting side issue:
When processing the game frame by frame you'll notice another remarkable thing: when an emitter emits, the creeper from that cell will spread to all neighboring cells 8 frames later, but no creeper is left in the center! You can clearly see this in the creeper clock for frames 2 to 8. Again 8 frames later the creeper flows back from the neighbors to the center cell. You would never see this behaviour with heat or fluids spreading, but it explains why you can see the emitters flashing during the game (I always wondered why).

Okay, that was a long story for an answer to a short question. :P All clear?

Edit: see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28772#msg28772) for a slight correction of the wall decay times and the answer to this question!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 18, 2010, 03:04:34 PM
I think it is funny how close I actually was.  :P

Quote from: Colin on November 17, 2010, 02:13:05 AM
The answer to Question 9 is:

14,706 frames, Or 6:48 + 1 half second.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 03:06:18 PM
Yes, you were damn close. With a little more accurate creeper clock you would have won! (I briefly considered giving you the point after posting....)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 18, 2010, 03:11:12 PM
Well, this is why you state rules for yourself before you post:

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 04:26:49 AM
There is a slight error margin (of 1-2 frames), because the script does not always advance exactly 1 frame per tap, so I count any answer within that margin as correct.

You have to stick to your own rules.  ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 03:19:03 PM
Quote from: Colin on November 18, 2010, 03:11:12 PM
You have to stick to your own rules.  ;)

Yep, and I do that (which has cost me a gold tournament medal as you know).

I wasn't sure however if others would get that close to the answer, but the accuracy surprised me to be honest.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 19, 2010, 12:21:40 AM
Quote from: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:14:13 AM
6:50?

Please tell me which question you're trying to answer....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I revoke my answer!

I thought it was for the new one, it's late and I miss-read it. :D
I base my guess on others, sorry, but I go with a gut feeling as well.
I use the others answers to give me a smaller range to guess upon.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 19, 2010, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I use the others answers to give me a smaller range to guess upon.

Well, that turned out a smart thing to do. :)

Quote from: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I thought it was for the new one

I'll post the next question on Monday. Probably the last one, unless Sqaz makes it a tie.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 19, 2010, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I use the others answers to give me a smaller range to guess upon.

Well, that turned out a smart thing to do. :)

Quote from: Blaze on November 19, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I thought it was for the new one

I'll post the next question on Monday. Probably the last one, unless Sqaz makes it a tie.

I look forward to seeing the victor.
I know it won't be me, I only got one point. :P
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 19, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 04:26:49 AM
An interesting side issue:
When processing the game frame by frame you'll notice another remarkable thing: when an emitter emits, the creeper from that cell will spread to all neighboring cells 8 frames later, but no creeper is left in the center! You can clearly see this in the creeper clock for frames 2 to 8. Again 8 frames later the creeper flows back from the neighbors to the center cell. You would never see this behaviour with heat or fluids spreading, but it explains why you can see the emitters flashing during the game (I always wondered why).
I also noticed this (Even without advancing frame-by-frame). "But I didn't say anything."

Essentially, what happens when the creeper updates (Barring terrain and walls) is that it sets the creeper value of a cell to the average thickness of the surrounding cells, not even taking into account the current cell. Creeper can't flow through walls, so the creeper that would have flowed into a wall is redirected to the original cell, and a similar rule applies for terrain differences. The flow of creeper is, as with heat, directly proportional to the gradient. The fact that a cell keeps none of its original creeper if surrounded by empty space is an effect of cranking up the spread rate as high as the formula allows without increasing how often the calculations are performed.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 19, 2010, 09:15:30 PM
Ah, so it's basically an optimization issue? Not that it really matters, because the cell is only empty for 8 frames (instead of one, due to another optimization), so it doesn't affect gameplay at all.

By the way: this slightly changes the explanation of the answer to question 1 of this quiz, but not the answer itself.

Thanks for the addition! :)

Edit: now I think of it: this also means the wall element with the survival pod gets exposed to the creeper 8 frames less, because the cell containing the emitter was empty for that duration. This makes it very likely that 14688 frames (exactly 408 seconds) is the correct answer to question 9. Nate Dog gave this answer, so I decided to award him with a point as well. My apologies! Blaze can keep his, because I should have made a better testmap.

As a result these are the exact decay times for wall elements:

A wall element with 2 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/2 x 14688 = 7344 frames = 204 seconds.
A wall element with 3 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/3 x 14688 = 4896 frames = 136 seconds.
A wall element with 4 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/4 x 14688 = 3672 frames = 102 seconds.
A wall element with 5 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/5 x 14688 = 2938 frames = 81.6 seconds.
A wall element with 6 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/6 x 14688 = 2448 frames = 68 seconds.
A wall element with 7 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/7 x 14688 = 2099 frames = 58.3 seconds.
A wall element with 8 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/8 x 14688 = 1836 frames = 51 seconds.

I'm glad we got that straightened out.

Edit 2: see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28924#msg28924) for more corrections regarding this topic.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on November 20, 2010, 12:54:01 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 19, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
"But I didn't say anything."


                                                  p(-_-)q
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ontheworld on November 20, 2010, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Blaze on November 20, 2010, 12:54:01 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 19, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
"But I didn't say anything."


                                                  p(-_-)q

I repeat: Forums are just more fun that way.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 20, 2010, 04:20:45 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 19, 2010, 09:15:30 PM
Edit: now I think of it: this also means the wall element with the survival pod gets exposed to the creeper 8 frames less, because the cell containing the emitter was empty for that duration. This makes it very likely that 14688 frames (exactly 408 seconds) is the correct answer to question 9. Nate Dog gave this answer, so I decided to award him with a point as well. My apologies! Blaze can keep his, because I should have made a better testmap.

As a result these are the exact decay times for wall elements:

A wall element with 2 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/2 x 14688 = 7344 frames = 204 seconds.
A wall element with 3 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/3 x 14688 = 4896 frames = 136 seconds.
A wall element with 4 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/4 x 14688 = 3672 frames = 102 seconds.
A wall element with 5 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/5 x 14688 = 2938 frames = 81.6 seconds.
A wall element with 6 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/6 x 14688 = 2448 frames = 68 seconds.
A wall element with 7 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/7 x 14688 = 2099 frames = 58.3 seconds.
A wall element with 8 sides exposed to the creeper will decay in 1/8 x 14688 = 1836 frames = 51 seconds.

I'm glad we got that straightened out.
No...
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 19, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
Creeper can't flow through walls, so the creeper that would have flowed into a wall is redirected to the original cell, and a similar rule applies for terrain differences.
If you pause as the creeper first spreads, there is 3/8 of a layer of creeper over the emitter and touching the wall, assuming the emitters are intensity 1. Your original answer was correct.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 21, 2010, 08:52:05 AM
The creeper only updates every 8 frames, so unfortunately our display is not always up to date, making this rather hard to test. Maybe when you shift the starting frame of the emitter by a few frames you would be able get a better view on it. This can be achieved by manually adjusting the start time by 1 frame using this info (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5177.0), but I am kind of done with this question.

Besides that I think it makes sense that Virgil chose a round number for the default decay time and 408 seconds can be divided by 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8, so that seems a rather logical choice. Only Virgil knows the real answer, but I don't want to bother him for every single quiz question. Anyway, the correct answer seems to be between 14688 and 14700 frames, so I think it's fair that both people who answered within that range earned a point as I shouldn't have asked for such a precise answer while I couldn't be this precise myself (due to the program optimizations that I initially didn't take completely into account).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 21, 2010, 02:52:58 PM
I'm not asking you to look at what you see directly on the game screen itself. I use the value shown at the bottom of the screen in the elevation display, which is always more up-to-date rendering you see in the main game area, and takes into account changes in the creeper grid before any recalculations, responding instantly to the damage caused by a weapon or an emitter firing. Advancing frame-by-frame, the moment when the creeper first spreads outward from the emitter in the attached map, there are 3 units of creeper on top of the emitter and 1 in each of the adjacent empty squares.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 09:30:19 AM
Question 10 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Aurzel on November 22, 2010, 10:30:48 AM
I'm not going to look at the maps but just by looking at the picture you put up I'm going to guess that the emitter in the middle has a shorter interval  in the unsuccesful map, causing the blaster on the right to focus its fire on the emiter in the middle instead of on the emitter on the right (due to very fast interval emitters needing 2 blasters to cap it) this will allow creeper to spread on the right and destroy collector there, thus preventing the win
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 22, 2010, 11:07:26 AM
The blaster placed last will target the middle pool, this causes the difference.
Why? Probably because the last placed blaster starts with checking where the creeper is, and thus will shoot at the middle pool, the other one can't fire there, cause there isn't any creeper left, so it shoots at one of the side pools, I guess.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Quote from: Aurzel on November 22, 2010, 10:30:48 AM
I'm not going to look at the maps but just by looking at the picture you put up I'm going to guess that the emitter in the middle has a shorter interval  in the unsuccesful map, causing the blaster on the right to focus its fire on the emiter in the middle instead of on the emitter on the right (due to very fast interval emitters needing 2 blasters to cap it) this will allow creeper to spread on the right and destroy collector there, thus preventing the win

Incorrect.

Quote from: Sqaz on November 22, 2010, 11:07:26 AM
The blaster placed last will target the middle pool, this causes the difference.
Why? Probably because the last placed blaster starts with checking where the creeper is, and thus will shoot at the middle pool, the other one can't fire there, cause there isn't any creeper left, so it shoots at one of the side pools, I guess.

Correct. :) One more point for you.

Apparently the blasters check for the closest creeper in reversed order of their creation. When the left blaster is created last, it will cap the middle emitter, so the blaster on the right can target the emitter on the right. When the right blaster is created last this will be the one capping the middle emitter, enabling the emitter on the right to destroy the collector. So build order matters!

The same thing applies to emitters, only not in reversed order. When you put a delayed zero intensity emitter on top of a normal emitter with the same interval it will stop that emitter. When you would have created that zero intensity emitter first, it would be underneath the normal emitter and not stop all creeper emitted. This is something you may want to take into account when creating maps with stacked emitters.

Because we have a tie now I will keep asking questions until Sqaz or mthw2vc earns the next point and wins the quiz. Everyone can still participate and even catch up with the 2 leaders!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Grauniad on November 22, 2010, 06:49:20 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Because we have a tie now I will keep asking questions until Sqaz or mthw2vc earns the next point and wins the quiz. Everyone can still participate and even catch up with the 2 leaders!

Rules of fairness would demand that the winner has a clear, two-point lead. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 08:24:40 PM
Quote from: Grauniad on November 22, 2010, 06:49:20 PM
Rules of fairness would demand that the winner has a clear, two-point lead. :)

Let's apply that rule, I like it. :)

But of course I won't if Sqaz or mthw2vc have objections, so I'll give them 48 hours to let me know if they do. Next question will be posted at the end of the week, because I'm rather busy at the moment.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ctuna on November 22, 2010, 09:51:42 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Apparently the blasters check for the closest creeper in reversed order of their creation. When the left blaster is created last, it will cap the middle emitter, so the blaster on the right can target the emitter on the right. When the right blaster is created last this will be the one capping the middle emitter, enabling the emitter on the right to destroy the collector. So build order matters!

Does this depend strictly on the creation order, regardless of which was powered first (for example, if the path to them is different)? What about moving two into the area at the same time?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 22, 2010, 09:59:28 PM
Quote from: ctuna on November 22, 2010, 09:51:42 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Apparently the blasters check for the closest creeper in reversed order of their creation. When the left blaster is created last, it will cap the middle emitter, so the blaster on the right can target the emitter on the right. When the right blaster is created last this will be the one capping the middle emitter, enabling the emitter on the right to destroy the collector. So build order matters!

Does this depend strictly on the creation order, regardless of which was powered first (for example, if the path to them is different)? What about moving two into the area at the same time?
It is only creation order that matters. In previous versions of the game this used to be different, however. I know that you could send a unit for a short flight and this would change order, but no longer does so. Order of connection never mattered. Of course, you could engineer an example where order of connection matters, in that one of the blasters gets to fire a frame or two earlier because the other didn't have energy. But that's a completely different thing. In the quiz example, both blasters fire at the same frame.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 06:32:18 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 26, 2010, 09:31:51 AM
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 26, 2010, 09:27:49 AM
I dont think the center of the city has energy , but i dont know this game as you do , so it still might be right =P

It does, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=246.msg4526#msg4526).
I now actually think that the center of the city does NOT produce energy and therefore maximal energy production of the city is 0.872. I tested by connecting the city (with relays of course!) with 1-square collectors. With 6 collectors added, it still shows production of 0.8, while with 7, it shows 0.9. You would expect it to show 0.9 with 6. I've also noticed other weird results while trying to make a map that handled energy extremely precisely and I would only explain the weirdness if there was one less green square than I thought.

EDIT: I'm not very sure about this though. Could it be one of those weird errors that arise when you truncate because of numbers stored in binary?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 07:27:52 AM
Oh, interesting! I actually thought Spiffen meant something else by the center of the city (the 2 onboard reactors), so I never figured he was referring to the center square.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 07:41:24 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 07:27:52 AM
Oh, interesting! I actually thought Spiffen meant something else by the center of the city (the 2 onboard reactors), so I never figured he was referring to the center square.
Never mind, actually. Further testing seems to suggest that the center does produce energy. I think it's a rounding mistake with conversion to binary and back (something like the warning in this page (http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.float.php)).

I found a different reason why my map produced weird results. It seems that 0.2 emitters fire every 7 frames. So, they won't fire only 5 times per second, but about 5.14 times (on average).
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 07:41:24 AM
Never mind, actually. Further testing seems to suggest that the center does produce energy. I think it's a rounding mistake with conversion to binary and back (something like the warning in this page (http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.float.php)).

Hey, nice way to keep me busy! :P

I just created a testmap and it indeed shows the center does produce energy (see attachment). OC is placed centered on a 1 square elevation and so are 25 collectors. The energy collected is 0.7, also when you remove 1 collector. When you remove a second collector the collection drops to 0.6, so I think everything works as expected and I don't see any rounding issues involved here.

Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 07:41:24 AM
I found a different reason why my map produced weird results. It seems that 0.2 emitters fire every 7 frames. So, they won't fire only 5 times per second, but about 5.14 times (on average).

Not sure what this has to do with the city center, but everything expressed in seconds is translated into frames in the CWM file and will never be translated back. This means 0.2 seconds is translated into 0.2 * 36 = 7.2 frames, rounded to 7 and stored like that in the CWM file, so it will indeed fire more often. Maybe nice to know the rounding is always downwards: an emitter with a frequency of 0.1 seconds is translated into 0.1 * 36 = 3.6 frames and rounded to 3! This means it is more than twice as powerful as a 0.2 frequency emitter and will cost you 2.3333 times more energy to cap it....

Happy testing! ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 08:36:38 AM
I just created a testmap and it indeed shows the center does produce energy (see attachment). OC is placed centered on a 1 square elevation and so are 25 collectors. The energy collected is 0.7, also when you remove 1 collector. When you remove a second collector the collection drops to 0.6, so I think everything works as expected and I don't see any rounding issues involved here.
If it is what I think (the issue with rounding floats described in the php manual I linked above) then the rounding issue won't appear in all cases, but it's rather chaotic. In this case, the issue appears when rounding 0.9 but not when rounding 0.7 as in your example (my testing was with the city's 0.876 and adding collectors one by one, until it would reach 0.9). Look at the attached map. It's exactly your map with two 5x5 squares added, which produce an extra 0.2 energy. The energy collected when you remove one collector should still be 0.9, but it shows 0.8. Now while it shows 0.8, if you destroy one of the two 5x5 collectors, it will still show 0.8 which is now correct (apparently the rounding issue doesn't happen with 0.8 either, but only with 0.9!).

That's how I deduced, erroneously, that the center doesn't produce energy. There was this discrepancy that I interpreted as 1 square missing and then decided somewhat arbitrarily that the special square must be the center of the city.

Quote
Not sure what this has to do with the city center.
Nothing at all! I was just trying to find why I was getting deficit. I went completely the wrong way there. I thought it must be less energy produced instead of the blaster using more energy. Which in turn led me to testing the city, where I came across the rounding issue which naturally confirmed my theory! It was actually quite scientific; the rounding issue is not something that you usually think of.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 09:23:16 AM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 09:05:48 AM
If it is what I think (the issue with rounding floats described in the php manual I linked above) then the rounding issue won't appear in all cases, but it's rather chaotic. In this case, the issue appears when rounding 0.9 but not when rounding 0.7 as in your example (my testing was with the city's 0.876 and adding collectors one by one, until it would reach 0.9). Look at the attached map. It's exactly your map with two 5x5 squares added, which produce an extra 0.2 energy. The energy collected when you remove one collector should still be 0.9, but it shows 0.8. Now while it shows 0.8, if you destroy one of the two 5x5 collectors, it will still show 0.8 which is now correct (apparently the rounding issue doesn't happen with 0.8 either, but only with 0.9!).

Just tested it and got the same results as you did. Weird! AS3 must have the same kind of problems as PHP has (and probably quite some other languages). Too bad the values are always floored instead of rounded to the nearest integer....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 09:23:16 AM
Just tested it and got the same results as you did. Weird! AS3 must have the same kind of problems as PHP has (and probably quite some other languages).
I think it's more like a consequence of the way computers work and not so much a problem of the programing language. You could, of course, store the decimal expansion of a number instead of the binary one. You'd still get weird results like floor(3*(1/3))=0 but not the more counterintuitive like floor(10*0.8)=7. But then operations like addition would take much more CPU time. Floats must have finite precision because of finite memory and for scientific purposes there isn't really any more badness in saying 7=6.99 than in saying π=3.14.

For the purposes of CW, you could simply store all things energy related in integers (i.e. store 0.004 as 4), since there aren't any occurences of numbers with more decimal digits.

Quote
Too bad the values are always floored instead of rounded to the nearest integer....
With my luck, I'd still stumble upon the rounding issue at exactly 7.5 or 8.5!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 10:21:56 AM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
I think it's more like a consequence of the way computers work and not so much a problem of the programing language. You could, of course, store the decimal expansion of a number instead of the binary one. You'd still get weird results like floor(3*(1/3))=0 but not the more counterintuitive like floor(10*0.8 )=7. But then operations like addition would take much more CPU time. Floats must have finite precision because of finite memory and for scientific purposes there isn't really any more badness in saying 7=6.99 than in saying π=3.14.

Sure, I understand that, but apparently more precise math functions (http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.bc.php) are available (at least for PHP, not sure about AS3).

Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
For the purposes of CW, you could simply store all things energy related in integers (i.e. store 0.004 as 4), since there aren't any occurences of numbers with more decimal digits.

That's exactly what CW2 will do! :)
Title: Corrections
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 06:08:30 PM
Okay, time for some more corrections, as I got the answers from the only person who really knows.

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 18, 2010, 04:26:49 AM
Quote from: mopa42 on November 17, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
It looks like the game only checks for wall decays about every 7 frames

My findings are that the decay is checked for every frame, but the creeper only updates every 8 frames (actually 1/8th of the creeper updates every frame, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=4695.msg24131#msg24131)), so that may have influenced your results when you also used a creeper clock (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=2909).

You are right about this mopa42, as Virgil states:

Quote from: virgilw on November 23, 2010, 12:46:49 PM
As for the wall decay rate.... it looks like the constant I use is 1/2100.  That amount gets subtracted from the wall starting value (which is 1).  Now this doesn't happen every frame... it only happens every 7 frames (the creeper updates on intervals of 7 frames and the wall decay happens during the creeper update calculation).

I'm not sure why shifting the start time of the emitter by one frame also shifts the survivor dying by one frame, but I guess I'll have to live with the fact that I'll never know everything.

Quote from: mthw2vc on November 19, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
Creeper can't flow through walls, so the creeper that would have flowed into a wall is redirected to the original cell, and a similar rule applies for terrain differences.
If you pause as the creeper first spreads, there is 3/8 of a layer of creeper over the emitter and touching the wall, assuming the emitters are intensity 1. Your original answer was correct.

This also seems right, as Virgil replied:

Quote from: virgilw on November 23, 2010, 12:46:49 PM
So that would mean 2100*7 = 14700 frames to decay a wall (if my quick peek at the code is correct).

This means the final answer to question 9 is 14700 frames and the other times calculated for wall decay are posted correctly here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28676#msg28676). Of course I won't retract points given due to my own wrong assumptions....

Finally:

Quote from: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 10:21:56 AM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 23, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
For the purposes of CW, you could simply store all things energy related in integers (i.e. store 0.004 as 4), since there aren't any occurences of numbers with more decimal digits.

That's exactly what CW2 will do! :)

Quote from: virgilw on November 23, 2010, 12:46:49 PM
Yeah, in CW2 everything is explicitly an integer.  I also use frames in the editor rather than showing seconds.  The seconds that the CW1 editor shows is just a human convenience (as you have discovered).  The values always get rounded to some number of frames.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kamron3 on November 23, 2010, 07:39:33 PM
Happy 3000th post UpperKEES!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 23, 2010, 09:56:37 PM
Quote from: JSCG Gaara on November 23, 2010, 07:39:33 PM
Happy 3000th post UpperKEES!

Oh, thanks. Didn't even notice until you mentioned it....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 25, 2010, 02:35:46 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 22, 2010, 08:24:40 PM
Quote from: Grauniad on November 22, 2010, 06:49:20 PM
Rules of fairness would demand that the winner has a clear, two-point lead. :)

Let's apply that rule, I like it. :)

But of course I won't if Sqaz or mthw2vc have objections, so I'll give them 48 hours to let me know if they do. Next question will be posted at the end of the week, because I'm rather busy at the moment.

Haven't heard of any objections, so the winner needs a 2 point lead now.

Question 11 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 25, 2010, 03:25:37 PM
36
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 25, 2010, 03:26:57 PM
16, four for each collector.  ;D
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 25, 2010, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 25, 2010, 03:25:37 PM
36

Incorrect.

Quote from: Colin on November 25, 2010, 03:26:57 PM
16, four for each collector.  ;D

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: hi on November 25, 2010, 03:28:40 PM
40
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 25, 2010, 03:43:00 PM
Quote from: hi on November 25, 2010, 03:28:40 PM
40

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 25, 2010, 05:37:48 PM
100

Around each collector, spores can hit a 5x5 area, as can be shown by placing a collector in the middle of a 5x5 set of walls and launching 100 spores at it. Never once in several attempts did they land in any other squares, or else the creeper would spread immediately, but you can tell from the elevation gauge that they are capable of landing in each of the squares.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 25, 2010, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 25, 2010, 05:37:48 PM
100


Around each collector, spores can hit a 5x5 area, as can be shown by placing a collector in the middle of a 5x5 set of walls and launching 100 spores at it. Never once in several attempts did they land in any other squares, or else the creeper would spread immediately, but you can tell from the elevation gauge that they are capable of landing in each of the squares.

Correct! :) One more point for you. No need to explain more after reading the above I guess.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 26, 2010, 02:43:57 AM
Question 12 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27012#msg27012) has been posted. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 26, 2010, 09:27:08 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 18, 2010, 11:08:02 PM
Question 12:
Please have a look at the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1951;image)

9 emitters with intensity 2 are emitting for exactly 1400 seconds and all of them start at the exact beginning of this time frame. Emitter 1 has an interval of 0.1 seconds, emitter 2 has an interval of 0.2, etcetera, and finally emitter 9 has an interval of 0.9 seconds. All emitters are placed on single squares at elevation level 5 and these squares are located in a huge pool that won't fill up, because its bottom at elevation level 1 contains 16 zero intensity emitters that suck the creeper away. Odin City just flies around trying to survive....

A. How much ccc of creeper is emitted exactly by these 9 emitters during this time frame in normal mode?
B. How much ccc of creeper is emitted exactly by these 9 emitters during this time frame in Double Down mode?

Please note that both answers have to be correct and they will be affected by this recently discovered bug (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5351.msg29049#msg29049)!
A: 67 262
B: 100 780
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 27, 2010, 04:49:44 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on November 26, 2010, 09:27:08 AM
A: 67 262
B: 100 780

Correct! You are the winner of the quiz, congrats! :)

This question was actually to show the difference in increase when playing on double down. You would first expect twice as much creeper, but it should be even more because the frames have to be rounded down to the nearest integer. You can see this in the left tables of the image below:

(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5081.0;attach=1956;image)

212140 / 86462 = ~2.45 times more creeper should be emitted in DD mode, but it turns out to be only 1.5 times more in this example (the data on the right).

This is due to the creeper updates only occurring every 7 frames. Some emittances get lost because the emitter fires again before the creeper was able to spread. Because of this a high frequency emitter will emit just as much creeper as a 0.2 emitter in normal mode. In this test the amount of creeper emitted in DD-mode was only 50% of what it should have been. The tables on the right show the correct answers, taking the bug (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5351.0) into account.

Well, that was the quiz. I hope you enjoyed it and maybe even learned something. :) I know I did!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 03:06:10 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 27, 2010, 04:49:44 AM
Well, that was the quiz. I hope you enjoyed it and maybe even learned something. :) I know I did!

I enjoyed it too, cause I'm second :P, it really cleared up a whole lot of dark spots in the creeper-mechanics universe. Like the walls, I always wondered how long it'd take for them to dissolve.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 12:13:18 PM
Good! :)

I was thinking of a second quiz with a different format:
- Multiple choice questions (A-D), maybe slightly easier.
- 2 questions a week, posted simultaneously on for instance Monday.
- Anyone can answer and earn a point at the end of the week for every good answer.
- Copying answers from others is possible, but so is changing/editing your answer 5 minutes before the deadline. ;)

Not sure if people like another quiz, but it's pretty clear that more mechanics are available to be explored. I don't want to set up a poll for this, but will start a new one when let's say 10 people are interested. (It does cost quite some time, so I'm not doing it for just 3 participants.) Just let me know (in any way)....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 12:13:18 PM
Good! :)

I was thinking of a second quiz with a different format:
- Multiple choice questions (A-D), maybe slightly easier.
- 2 questions a week, posted simultaneously on for instance Monday.
- Anyone can answer and gain a point at the end of the week for a good answer.
- Copying answers from others is possible, but so is changing/editing your answer 5 minutes before the deadline. ;)

Not sure if people like another quiz, but it's pretty clear that more mechanics are available to be explored. I don't want to set up a poll for this, but will start a new one when let's say 10 people are interested. (It does cost quite some time, so I'm not doing it for just 3 participants.) Just let me know (in any way)....

I'd like a new quiz, but having multiple choice makes it easier, and harder to make fitting questions. Also the fact that it isn't first comes wins, will allow everyone to copy mthw2vc's answer :P.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
I'd like a new quiz, but having multiple choice makes it easier

Yes, a bit easier to guess, but many people were doing that anyway. Still only 25% chance to guess right.

Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
harder to make fitting questions.

It actually won't. I found it pretty hard to always create open questions for the previous quiz with for instance a number as answer and this has restricted me in the selection of certain topics.

Edit: But I'll reconsider.... I could end up with a mix of open and closed questions. :)

Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
Also the fact that it isn't first comes wins, will allow everyone to copy mthw2vc's answer :P.

This is indeed possible, but nothing prevents mthw2vc (and anyone else) to post their answer just before the deadline or, even sneakier, change it in the last seconds.... ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Kapoios on November 28, 2010, 02:05:43 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 12:13:18 PM
I was thinking of a second quiz with a different format:
- Multiple choice questions (A-D), maybe slightly easier.
- 2 questions a week, posted simultaneously on for instance Monday.
- Anyone can answer and earn a point at the end of the week for every good answer.
- Copying answers from others is possible, but so is changing/editing your answer 5 minutes before the deadline. ;)

Not sure if people like another quiz, but it's pretty clear that more mechanics are available to be explored. I don't want to set up a poll for this, but will start a new one when let's say 10 people are interested. (It does cost quite some time, so I'm not doing it for just 3 participants.) Just let me know (in any way)....
I'd very much like to see yet another quiz. I enjoyed trying to figure out the last few questions, since I started reading the forums mid-quiz. And, of course, I learned lots of stuff by reading the answers to the previous ones.

I like the multiple choice idea. I wonder if this messageboard allows posts to only be readable by you. I'm sure I've seen that before, somewhere.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: Kapoios on November 28, 2010, 02:05:43 PM
I learned lots of stuff by reading the answers to the previous ones.

Same for myself. I have been testing more than when I was developing new maps! This is probably also the reason I found more bugs doing so....

Quote from: Kapoios on November 28, 2010, 02:05:43 PM
I like the multiple choice idea. I wonder if this messageboard allows posts to only be readable by you. I'm sure I've seen that before, somewhere.

It would also be possible to use PM's, but that would mess up my mailbox. I think it's not too bad when people look at each others answers, especially when these can be modified in the last minutes before the deadline. This will introduce some other quiz tactics! ;) I may choose for a mix of open and closed questions though.... not sure about that yet.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 02:29:46 PM
That last minute changing is a bit unfair for people living in another timezone than you. I can easily change my question just before the deadline, but what about people in the U.S?

Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 02:29:46 PM
That last minute changing is a bit unfair for people living in another timezone than you. I can easily change my question just before the deadline, but what about people in the U.S?

I wouldn't be so sure about that, because the tournament deadline for instance is at Sunday evening midnight (0:00), which is 7 AM on Monday morning here in Europe. I noticed you're often up early and online in the morning, so you'll be fine. ;) And of course you don't have to change it....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 02:58:39 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 02:29:46 PM
That last minute changing is a bit unfair for people living in another timezone than you. I can easily change my question just before the deadline, but what about people in the U.S?

I wouldn't be so sure about that, because the tournament deadline for instance is at Sunday evening midnight (0:00), which is 7 AM on Monday morning here in Europe. I noticed you're often up early and online in the morning, so you'll be fine. ;) And of course you don't have to change it....

7AM would be perfect for me, but for instance I do not expect Kapoios to wake up at 6 AM to change his answer.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 03:03:29 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 28, 2010, 02:58:39 PM
I do not expect Kapoios to wake up at 6 AM to change his answer.

Me neither, but it's up to anyone to decide if they want to 'play' like that. I can also alternate the deadline each week by ie. 8 hours, but I'm afraid that could lead to confusion.

And by the way, Kap has often been in chat with me until 6 AM discussing game mechanics, so I guess we're both just as crazy. ;D
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Katra on November 28, 2010, 04:39:51 PM
I would be interested in another quiz; especially one where I might have a chance to participate. (The first one I never had a chance since almost every question was answered before I even saw it.)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 28, 2010, 05:07:56 PM
Quote from: Katra on November 28, 2010, 04:39:51 PM
I would be interested in another quiz; especially one where I might have a chance to participate. (The first one I never had a chance since almost every question was answered before I even saw it.)

Yes, this is also a reason I like everyone to be able to answer. For the previous quiz I tried to spread the posting time of the questions a little, but people that are online more often just had an advantage. For the next quiz everyone will have a week to think and experiment with the 2 questions.

Okay, that makes a total of 3 people interested. I need 10....
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: SPIFFEN on November 28, 2010, 05:19:52 PM
4 with me =)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Nate Dog on November 28, 2010, 06:47:45 PM
I second, no wait, fifth the motion! :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Colin on November 28, 2010, 08:24:11 PM
Yeah, I would definitely like to see this continue!  ;)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: Blaze on November 29, 2010, 12:01:10 AM
Seven.

Count me in.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: thepenguin on November 29, 2010, 07:48:23 AM
eight
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: mthw2vc on November 29, 2010, 08:34:13 AM
Sure, why not?
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 08:43:37 AM
Okay, including hi who indicated the same in chat this makes 10. I'll start a new quiz next week. :)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: J on November 29, 2010, 10:39:48 AM
TEN!
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ctuna on November 29, 2010, 01:02:12 PM
Kees, as a kinda math moron, I'd like to see some, "How do you use it?" kind of quiz questions. Can't give a really great example right now, but something like where's the best place to start a particular map (and why) or what's the advantage of a particular strategy against some threat scenario. I don't see the obvious as well as some, but I can sometimes learn from example. Some of the solutions the the previous quiz were great for the "what", but I didn't always get the, "How is this used?" part. I hope this kind of question will work better in a week-long quiz than it might have in the previous one. Thanx for consideration.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 03:09:10 PM
Quote from: ctuna on November 29, 2010, 01:02:12 PM
Kees, as a kinda math moron, I'd like to see some, "How do you use it?" kind of quiz questions.

Some of the solutions the the previous quiz were great for the "what", but I didn't always get the, "How is this used?" part.

Well, it's true that most questions till now have approached the various topics from the theoretical side. This is mainly because you have to understand the way something works before you can apply this knowledge. A second reason is that many tactics and strategies have been discussed before on the forums, but often without knowing or understand why certain things happen.

Apart from that the mechanics are interesting to 2 different (but overlapping) groups of people: players and map makers. When you for instance look at the questions of the previous quiz, you could roughly say that questions 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11 can be useful to a player of CW (i.e. choice of weapons or number of speed nodes), while questions 1, 6, 9 and 12 are more useful to a map maker. Of course a map maker should always take the player into account, so indirectly every question is interesting for a map maker.

Quote from: ctuna on November 29, 2010, 01:02:12 PM
Can't give a really great example right now, but something like where's the best place to start a particular map (and why) or what's the advantage of a particular strategy against some threat scenario. I don't see the obvious as well as some, but I can sometimes learn from example. I hope this kind of question will work better in a week-long quiz than it might have in the previous one. Thanx for consideration.

Although this would actually discuss the tactics and strategy more than the mechanics itself, I will try to think of some more practical questions as well when I can link them to a specific CW feature. The intention of the quiz is however to discuss how and why everything works the way it works. In the discussion that follows we can always try to find out what this means for gameplay and map making.
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz - How much do you really know?
Post by: ctuna on December 01, 2010, 07:04:10 PM
Didn't mean the quiz should only be for my benefit, of course. And, yes, many of the previous quiz questions gave me good info.
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 03:09:10 PM
... I will try to think of some more practical questions as well when I can link them to a specific CW feature. The intention of the quiz is however to discuss how and why everything works the way it works. In the discussion that follows we can always try to find out what this means for gameplay and map making.
Thx again for any considerations.

edit (I just noticed I made full member. Yay!)
Title: Re: Game Mechanics Quiz 1 - How much do you really know?
Post by: UpperKEES on December 06, 2010, 03:27:41 AM
Quote from: ctuna on December 01, 2010, 07:04:10 PM
Thx again for any considerations.

You can judge for yourself, because questions 1 & 2 of the second edition of the Game Mechanics Quiz (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5421.msg29624#msg29624) have been posted! :)