Knuckle Cracker

Creeper World => Custom Map Discussion => Custom Map Comments => Topic started by: AutoPost on May 27, 2010, 11:33:27 AM

Title: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: AutoPost on May 27, 2010, 11:33:27 AM
This topic is for discussion of map: Nice Job 12: The Collector (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2062)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=2062) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2062)

Author: UpperKEES (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=UpperKEES)

Desc:
During the initial phase you will have to retreat after picking up the items of your preference. Defending this position will be the hardest part and might cost you a few tries. Once established you'll be able to advance rather fast. From that moment moving to the 2nd page will be the toughest job.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 27, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
Title:
Nice Job 12: The Collector
Difficulty:
Hard
Creeper type:
Land only
Remarks:
During the initial phase you will have to retreat after picking up the items of your preference. Defending this position will be the hardest part and might cost you a few tries. Once established you'll be able to advance rather fast. From that moment moving to the 2nd page will be the toughest job.
Description:
You are not only a Creeper World addict, but also a dedicated collector. The CW items have become your collector items that you store in a special book. One day this collection might be worth a lot of money!

Today is a happy day; you've finally found the Thor tech and your collection is complete!

When you place the tech in your book, you realize something terrible....
Emitters can't be stored without being capped!

You quickly decide to use the items to save the collection.... and yourself!
Download page:
Nice Job 12: The Collector (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2062)
Full size screen shot:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=624;image)
More maps:
Apply here for another job ;) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.0)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: NNR_Alex on May 27, 2010, 03:58:41 PM
man this one is beating me up too.  I've figured out not to float the city to get the first techs and i was able to hold things off for a while, i moved one blaster i shouldn't have, to try and keep the moat between the book and the land down and that cost me on my latest try, i'll have to attempt it again later.

Edit: oh yeah i noticed you decided to bump back the soccer player, i was confused at first when i saw the collector instead, lol.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 04:39:07 PM
You're certainly right about getting out of the corner being the toughest part... How you beat it in 20 minutes is beyond me. It's also interesting how by the time I could get the thor built, I already had all of the emitters capped. I would've really appreciated it if the mortar or drone tech was closer to the start, though.

A hint for anyone who's having trouble: You can defend for several minutes with two blasters. Use that time to build reactors, although you will eventually need a third blaster.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 27, 2010, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 27, 2010, 03:58:41 PM
man this one is beating me up too.  I've figured out not to float the city to get the first techs and i was able to hold things off for a while, i moved one blaster i shouldn't have, to try and keep the moat between the book and the land down and that cost me on my latest try, i'll have to attempt it again later.

Spoiler
Nah, I think you'd lose too much energy by floating. I just build 2 collectors (what else do you have? ;)) to the left top of the book and collect the blaster tech, the reactor tech, the speed tech, the storage tech and 3 upgrades (just in time with about 1 second left). In the meanwhile I have built 2 more collectors below OC and start building one reactor. You'll probably lose all collectors on the book and the right most above the book; I don't even try to protect them. When the first reactor is finished I build a blaster to defend against the creeper coming from the right top. Then I build one the defend against the creeper from below. After that I keep building a couple of reactors and add a third blaster later when the pressure is rising. Moving the blasters is indeed tricky, so you should make very small steps when advancing. Also make sure you reserve your last free spots for more blasters to enter the book again.
[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 27, 2010, 03:58:41 PM
Edit: oh yeah i noticed you decided to bump back the soccer player, i was confused at first when i saw the collector instead, lol.

Yep, I decided to switch them, because I expect the Soccer Player to be more popular with the world championships getting closer. ;)

Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 04:39:07 PM
You're certainly right about getting out of the corner being the toughest part... How you beat it in 20 minutes is beyond me.

Spoiler
I only advance when I have used every available spot with units of which I'm sure I'll need. This way I cover most of page 1 with some more reactors, a couple of speed nodes and spare blasters.
[close]

Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 04:39:07 PM
It's also interesting how by the time I could get the thor built, I already had all of the emitters capped. I would've really appreciated it if the mortar or drone tech was closer to the start, though.

Spoiler
Oh, you build Thor? I only included it to complete the collection, but I figured people would finish the map a few seconds later because it's next to the last totem. I'm not sure if you would have enough energy to use a mortar during the initial phase, because it's already hard to keep the 2 blasters firing. You get to the mortar at the moment it's really needed: when you want to move over to the second page. Though if you really want to, I guess it's possible to get the mortar early (at the cost of missing some upgrades and the speed tech).
[close]

Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 04:39:07 PM
A hint for anyone who's having trouble: You can defend for several minutes with two blasters. Use that time to build reactors, although you will eventually need a third blaster.

Exactly. You've played it well! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 05:37:16 PM
You built reactors on the book? I didn't need any once I got up there in the first place. Also, what I mean when I say I would've appreciated the mortar tech being closer to the start is that it would be easier to advance once you built them (I honestly considered floating to get it in the beginning). As it stands, without air-juggling, I needed every last spot I could save to get onto the book and I actually needed more time rather than energy to save the blasters I had going down the left side once I was finally on the offensive. I'm certainly going to try this one again.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 27, 2010, 05:43:13 PM
Spoiler
With more energy you can build more units at the same time. I enter the book with about 7 and completed the map with about 13 (although that could have been a little less).
[close]

Spoiler
I leave the 2 blasters at the bottom left until the pressure went down after conquering most of page 1. Then I move one of them to the 2nd page. Mortars are not very effective against creeper of 1 elevation level thick, so they would only be useful to hit the few pools on the book that they might reach.
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
The thing about them is that the have a long range and target the pools. This can be good for clearing out the book in a short amount of time. I had the second book page almost clean within 2 minutes of building my mortars.

Also, do not forget that the slots are each 2 units deep. As for their only being effective on the pools, I disagree. I used one of them to clear out the backflow in the lower-right corner, and you can fly them to attack every pool almost at the same time.

[I am not trying to argue here. I am trying to explain why I would've liked the mortar tech to be easier to get.]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 12:05:54 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on May 27, 2010, 05:25:09 PM


Nah, I think you'd lose too much energy by floating. I just build 2 collectors (what else do you have? ;)) to the left top of the book and collect the blaster tech, the reactor tech, the speed tech, the storage tech and 3 upgrades (just in time with about 1 second left). In the meanwhile I have built 2 more collectors below OC and start building one reactor. You'll probably lose all collectors on the book and the right most above the book; I don't even try to protect them. When the first reactor is finished I build a blaster to defend against the creeper coming from the right top. Then I build one the defend against the creeper from below. After that I keep building a couple of reactors and add a third blaster later when the pressure is rising. Moving the blasters is indeed tricky, so you should make very small steps when advancing. Also make sure you reserve your last free spots for more blasters to enter the book again.


Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 04:39:07 PM
A hint for anyone who's having trouble: You can defend for several minutes with two blasters. Use that time to build reactors, although you will eventually need a third blaster.

Exactly. You've played it well! :)

I gotta say you collect a lot more than i did, i stopped after the blaster and reactor.  speed and storage won't do much good early on but are nice to get out of the way, i'll definatly pick up the upgrades and use them all on the green slots, I'll take faster building of reactors/blasters over better fire rate/range.

The only major thing i did diffrent was i was able to stay on the top corner of the book with just one blaster for a while followed by a second one when the creeper...well started creeping up around one of the collection holes.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 02:06:29 AM
Well I beat this one, not a pretty score, although I'm glad most the other people are in the 40min range as well, i could shave a few minutes off i'm sure, only used two mortars to get into the second page so it worked out pretty good for me, i battery powered my way back onto the first page of the book, lost a few blasters but once i had a foothold and a few of the storage holes covered i knew i'd win this time.

Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 28, 2010, 05:01:50 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
The thing about them is that the have a long range and target the pools. This can be good for clearing out the book in a short amount of time. I had the second book page almost clean within 2 minutes of building my mortars.

Also, do not forget that the slots are each 2 units deep. As for their only being effective on the pools, I disagree. I used one of them to clear out the backflow in the lower-right corner, and you can fly them to attack every pool almost at the same time.

[I am not trying to argue here. I am trying to explain why I would've liked the mortar tech to be easier to get.]

Don't worry, I always like a good discussion and seeing/understanding somebody else's point of view. It's just that I like the start to be hard. You'll have to clear about 33% of the book without mortars (without doubt the hardest part), but you can use them for the remaining 67%. As I love blaster fights I often offer mortars and/or drones later on in my maps. Besides that mortars are really not as efficient as a lot of people think (unless you keep moving/deactivating them). Even the fastest time on Corvus(!) has been set by using only 2 blasters. I hardly use mortars at all and certainly not when drones are available. Here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=288) is a nice discussion about this.

Quote from: UpperKEES on May 27, 2010, 05:25:09 PM
Though if you really want to, I guess it's possible to get the mortar early (at the cost of missing some upgrades and the speed tech).

I tried this, but without success.

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 12:05:54 AM
I gotta say you collect a lot more than i did, i stopped after the blaster and reactor.  speed and storage won't do much good early on but are nice to get out of the way, i'll definatly pick up the upgrades and use them all on the green slots, I'll take faster building of reactors/blasters over better fire rate/range.

Spoiler
So how do you get 3 upgrades without getting speed and storage? If you place your collectors in a smart way, you should be able to get it all for the same costs. I don't do this very often, but I made a screenshot because I realize the start of this map is rather hard. See attachment how to collect all these items just in time. I also use the upgrades for the green slots myself.
[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 12:05:54 AM
The only major thing i did diffrent was i was able to stay on the top corner of the book with just one blaster for a while followed by a second one when the creeper...well started creeping up around one of the collection holes.

I recall doing the same thing a month ago when I created and tested this map, but if I remember correctly it did cost me more energy than I gained from it. Not sure though....

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 02:06:29 AM
Well I beat this one, not a pretty score, although I'm glad most the other people are in the 40min range as well, i could shave a few minutes off i'm sure, only used two mortars to get into the second page so it worked out pretty good for me, i battery powered my way back onto the first page of the book, lost a few blasters but once i had a foothold and a few of the storage holes covered i knew i'd win this time.

Spoiler
Yep, I use only 2 mortars as well. I think the seconds page only costs me about 3 minutes, while the emitters are much stronger, but that's mainly because I build many blasters in advance.
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: RichieRich on May 28, 2010, 05:31:13 AM
Yikes that was heavy going  :D

Second time was much better as I overbuilt a bit the first time. Not sure how you got upto 7 energy before you went on the page UpperKEES - my space was pretty full and I was at 5.5.

Once you are established striaghtforward enough  - the difficulty is a good score. Not sure how you got it to 20 mins.

I dont think the mortar pacing is a problem. I mostly use blasters anyway and I built only 2 to clear out the deep water to make the 2nd page easier.

For the second page, I went from the bottom up so thor was actually the first upgrade I got. I did start building it but had everything locked down just as it finished building.

Thanks - as always - for the map. Great fun.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 05:34:06 AM
I had a similar (as in almost identical after you'd said what items you go for) set up on my completion run, except i lost the collector for speed/upgrade before it was finished, oh well just having upgrades for building faster and less costs helped out some.  and i couldn't hold the corner of the book this time had to drop back down all the way and sacrificed some blasters in my effort to get back on the page.


RichiRich-i did the same thing with thor, and it finished just as i was finishing the map as well.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 28, 2010, 05:44:49 AM
Quote from: RichieRich on May 28, 2010, 05:31:13 AM
Yikes that was heavy going  :D

Second time was much better as I overbuilt a bit the first time. Not sure how you got upto 7 energy before you went on the page UpperKEES - my space was pretty full and I was at 5.5.

Once you are established striaghtforward enough  - the difficulty is a good score. Not sure how you got it to 20 mins.

I dont think the mortar pacing is a problem. I mostly use blasters anyway and I built only 2 to clear out the deep water to make the 2nd page easier.

For the second page, I went from the bottom up so thor was actually the first upgrade I got. I did start building it but had everything locked down just as it finished building.

Thanks - as always - for the map. Great fun.

Also thanks to you, nice to see players sticking around. :)

Spoiler
Regarding the energy: I didn't give away all my secrets when posting the screenshot.... ;) I actually don't build my collectors with the maximum distance between them, as this results in a loss of space. I also move OC a bit to create more room. :P
[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 05:34:06 AM
I had a similar (as in almost identical after you'd said what items you go for) set up on my completion run, except i lost the collector for speed/upgrade before it was finished, oh well just having upgrades for building faster and less costs helped out some.  and i couldn't hold the corner of the book this time had to drop back down all the way and sacrificed some blasters in my effort to get back on the page.

Spoiler
I don't build all collectors at the same time, but add some when my energy levels allow me to do so. I add the one for the storage a little later for instance, just like the second collector below OC.
[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on May 28, 2010, 05:34:06 AM
RichiRich-i did the same thing with thor, and it finished just as i was finishing the map as well.

I'm glad to read this, because I never want Thor to be used on one of my maps! ;)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: mthw2vc on May 28, 2010, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on May 28, 2010, 05:01:50 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on May 27, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
The thing about them is that the have a long range and target the pools. This can be good for clearing out the book in a short amount of time. I had the second book page almost clean within 2 minutes of building my mortars.

Also, do not forget that the slots are each 2 units deep. As for their only being effective on the pools, I disagree. I used one of them to clear out the backflow in the lower-right corner, and you can fly them to attack every pool almost at the same time.

[I am not trying to argue here. I am trying to explain why I would've liked the mortar tech to be easier to get.]

Don't worry, I always like a good discussion and seeing/understanding somebody else's point of view. It's just that I like the start to be hard. You'll have to clear about 33% of the book without mortars (without doubt the hardest part), but you can use them for the remaining 67%. As I love blaster fights I often offer mortars and/or drones later on in my maps. Besides that mortars are really not as efficient as a lot of people think (unless you keep moving/deactivating them). Even the fastest time on Corvus(!) has been set by using only 2 blasters. I hardly use mortars at all and certainly not when drones are available. Here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=288) is a nice discussion about this.
*snip*
Yes, blasters are usually better. This map isn't quite the same as corvus in that regard, though. By the time you can get to the mortar tech (Indeed, it does seem impossible to save it before the initial rush of creeper), It really mostly helps in that you don't need very many to clear the page, whereas you'd need more than 8 blasters to do that in under a minute (it only takes 4 mortars), although using the spare blasters to keep down the toughest emitters will still be needed. If you have enough spare blasters to clear it out in under a minute... I'm afraid I must question that.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 29, 2010, 09:52:51 AM
Quote from: mthw2vc on May 28, 2010, 06:54:37 PM
It really mostly helps in that you don't need very many to clear the page, whereas you'd need more than 8 blasters to do that in under a minute (it only takes 4 mortars), although using the spare blasters to keep down the toughest emitters will still be needed. If you have enough spare blasters to clear it out in under a minute... I'm afraid I must question that.

Let's assume (for the ease of the conversation) that you're right about the number of mentioned weapons needed. Four mortars will take twice the time to build compared to 8 blasters, assuming enough energy is available (and that's what I have). Including charging the weapons this will even become a factor 3.

Like you said you'll still need some blasters to clear the last parts and to cap the emitters. After clearing the deepest parts the mortars become obsolete, while the blasters remain useful.

It is hard to compare all strategies, which is a good thing, because it means the game is complex and offers many options to complete a map. When we do compare however, we should also take to preparation time into account. And when we do that, we should also take the time into account to build up the energy collection, so actually we can only compare the times it took us to finish the map.

Because you would have liked to get your mortars earlier, I've altered the map and switched the speed tech with the mortar tech, so you'll be able to get it during early game (see attachment). Posting a score won't be possible, but you can always post a screeny when you improved your score drastically. If you do so, I would not only be very surprised, but will also keep this in mind when designing future maps.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: Neilos on May 29, 2010, 12:01:13 PM
Struggled a wee bit with this one... got a bad start and only managed reactors, blasters and one upgrade, then took me at least ten minutes to even get back onto the book. 

Then spent ages working down page 1, but page 2 was much easier with a good infrastructure. 
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on May 30, 2010, 11:15:45 AM
Well, you're supposed to struggle a bit this time.... ;) When I have a bad start (and that's often because I like to try various options), I just restart after 2 minutes. Ten minutes to get onto the book again is not so bad however, because at that time you've done half of the work. I think I also spend about 10 minutes in that corner (building up energy).
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: Miss Melissa on June 28, 2010, 01:56:59 PM
rough start indeed.
the second page is only easier if u remember to make mortars when u get em.  ;)
great map as usual.. keep em commin.
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on June 28, 2010, 02:16:33 PM
Wow, nice score Melissa! :o You might have beaten mine with those mortars in place....

Thanks for playing again! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: DethbyIT on September 07, 2010, 06:44:26 AM
Tough start, but fun run after it gets going.
Thank you for another great game.

dbit
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on September 07, 2010, 12:16:18 PM
Oh! If you managed to beat this one, you should be able to finish The Explorer (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3112.0) as well, because I think the start of this one is harder....
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: DethbyIT on September 07, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
Heh!
OK - but I'm on "The Prince" right now.

One suggestion for you - make a post in each of your "Custom Map Comment" strings telling n00b's how to vote.

I don't know how and I imagine many others don't either.

Good stuff!
dbit
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on September 07, 2010, 12:30:13 PM
Nah, the voting is nice but not too important (although I like to see a good rating of course). People who have played a few of my maps and like them will know where to find the rest of them. Players who find them too hard will probably come back later when they've gained some more experience and are looking for a new challenge. I found that people either do like them and play a lot of them or they don't and never return. When I look for a nice map myself I rather look at the difficulty rating, the times that have been set and most important: the comments. So thank you for commenting on my maps! :)
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: snowmaker (JM) on December 11, 2010, 03:36:54 PM
I used a completely different tactic, guess it was a better one.  :D
Title: Re: Custom Map: Nice Job 12: The Collector
Post by: UpperKEES on December 11, 2010, 08:00:19 PM
Nice! When replaying this one I won't use a very different tactic than before though, as I'm sure I will be able save more energy or obtain more techs due to the packet filter. For this map that makes quite a difference.