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Creeper World 3 => Custom Map Discussion => Colonial Space Map Discussion => Topic started by: AutoPost on February 13, 2018, 07:13:27 PM

Title: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: AutoPost on February 13, 2018, 07:13:27 PM
This topic is for discussion of map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=5480)

Author: Decagon
Size: 200x140

Desc:
Mega-Boss Battle! Strikefleet Delta is intercepted by Strikefleet Omega.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: BilboGCL on February 14, 2018, 06:46:33 PM
Hi,
tough battle! Thanks!
Some questions left:
Spoiler

As the sleeper node does not move and any approach over the northern or southern island is, if not impossible at all, at least very hard ( I gave up after trying a few times) due to the AC-Berthas. Is there any other strategy than just firing the bertha (and the ac-bertha) on the sleeper node while trying to stay alive? I tried to send snipers to the node, probably a bit late, they were nice goals for the sleeper beams...
And the AC-Berthas, well, they don't do much damage but they can't be killed at all - right? The shooting frequency of them is really soul-destroying! So in the end I layed back just bertha-ing at the node;)
[close]

At least I had to rethink my usual sleeper strategy what is fine!

Greetings from The Shire!
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on February 14, 2018, 07:18:28 PM
Quote from: BilboGCL on February 14, 2018, 06:46:33 PM
Hi,
tough battle! Thanks!
Some questions left:
Spoiler

As the sleeper node does not move and any approach over the northern or southern island is, if not impossible at all, at least very hard ( I gave up after trying a few times) due to the AC-Berthas. Is there any other strategy than just firing the bertha (and the ac-bertha) on the sleeper node while trying to stay alive? I tried to send snipers to the node, probably a bit late, they were nice goals for the sleeper beams...
And the AC-Berthas, well, they don't do much damage but they can't be killed at all - right? The shooting frequency of them is really soul-destroying! So in the end I layed back just bertha-ing at the node;)
[close]

At least I had to rethink my usual sleeper strategy what is fine!

Greetings from The Shire!

Spoiler
The enemy AC Berthas can be killed, with a good old nullifier. Whilst they love to fire on Relays, the enemy AC Berthas do not fire at guppies. Chaining guppies is the way I nuked the bottom AC Bertha, pathing the way to the lower central island.
[close]
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: chwooly on February 14, 2018, 11:55:18 PM
For me this is unfinishable, I know I shouldn't comment since my comments tend to be totally against the Gods of this forum, especially since they like overly hard maps and their opinions seem to be the only ones that count. However what made it really bad for me was the overwhelming singularity,  and not being able to rebuild collectors once destroyed or landing the CN on the 1 pixel bits of land they started on.

The rest of the series was very fun and I enjoyed it but honesty this is the kind of map just makes me regret playing the other maps, Kind of like how I feel right now waiting for the last GOT book that was supposed to be done 2 years ago. I was expecting an epic battle in line with the skill level needed for the other maps, Not a map where I had to suddenly transform from a medium skilled player to a Celestial level player.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: GoodMorning on February 15, 2018, 12:05:58 AM
chwooly: The phrase "sweet voice of reason" probably applies. Politely stating that a map is too hard to be fun for you helps the experienced mapmakers (who are necessarily going to be practiced players) to calibrate the difficulty of their maps.

If all we hear are the opinions of top-level players, then our maps are going to take their recommendations.

So ... thanks for helping us keep our feet on the ground.

(In this case, I think Decagon might have been aiming for "very hard", given that this is a late-in-the-series boss map. But he can answer that better than I.)
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: D0m0nik on February 15, 2018, 05:21:41 AM
Chwooly - in your second paragraph you make a very reasonable point about difficulty progression, fair enough. But why lead with insults and rude comments in the first? You're deliberately provoking other forum members and then crying because they occasionally ask you to be respectful.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: willbir on February 15, 2018, 07:43:23 AM
It really is an absurdly ferocious map, I spent forever trying to get from the South island to the SE island without success, no matter what I tried I just couldn't muster the firepower to make it, if it wasn't for Decagon's hint above I would have given up. The map is labeled Mega-Boss Battle (understatement) though so we were warned.

Map makers should make whatever maps they like though, they donate huge time and effort for everyone's benefit, negativity and harsh ratings will just lead to fewer maps.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on February 15, 2018, 11:11:31 AM
I have read all of the responses, and I must admit, this map is not kind. Even to me, the map maker and general insider to how this map works, it was a struggle. And I appreciate that not everyone is going to be able to complete this map either. If you desire the story, it is explained within the opening text of the map, with nothing beyond that apart from playing the map itself.

The Sleeper Forge and the enemy AC Berthas do, however, provide a unique challenge that can be overcome. I believe I have gained several weapon lover achievements whilst finalizing this map, and that is what it took to take down the Sleeper in the end. A horde of weapons and other structures is the key to wiping the floor with the Sleeper, as well as using your own Berthas to ensure their Forge remains impotent for as far as reasonably possible.

I did label the map as a Mega-Boss, and for good reason. I'm sure those of you who have played my other Boss Battles will have seen the difficulty steadily ramp up between them. This Mega-Boss is the culmination of the difficulty peak, and will probably remain the most difficult Boss Battle of the series. Strikefleet Omega was the most powerful Strikefleet out there. I wanted to make sure that was reflected in-game.

I apologize to those that were looking for only gradual increases in difficulty that this map has ruined the series for you. It's unfortunate your appreciation can be shattered so easily by one map, and I hope you can find enjoyment elsewhere in Colonial Space.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: daniels220 on February 17, 2018, 07:53:19 PM
Some thoughts:

Great job on the Sleeper Forge...great addition to an already amazing game mode. It's scary—which is the point—but at the same time, in the end it's no match for sufficiently stupid-high energy production. I finished the map in 26 minutes (i.e. quite fast) and was behind in upgrades the entire time—quite an interesting experience, compared to a normal Sleeper map where you pretty quickly (I think 2/2 is enough?) get to the point where you can just push forward and enemy weapons can't really do anything about it.

Re: the Singularity, I only experienced it once—a MASSIVE swarm of spores, right? I was terrified at first, and if it had "lived up to the hype" I absolutely would have been dead. But, uh—Decagon, are they all supposed to target the same spot, and carry almost no creeper? Because that's what happened for me. I had just killed one of the structures on the center island, and it targeted a spot just North of the totem. I had like 20 beams in range, which of course did almost no good, but only like half a dozen cannons and a couple mortars. Even at the "standard" 50 creeper/spore, I would have had to really scramble to contain the resulting wave of creeper, but in fact I never saw any—it never got further than the ~3x3 area covered by the spore graphics. Of course if the spores had been independently targeted I would have just died outright, as I said. As it was, the main problem was massive lag from so many spores in the air. IMO it would be better if they were independently targeted, but also far fewer, and with relatively low payload (maybe 10? 25?).

Re: hordes of weapons—yes, this was key. For those who don't know--"creeps" (the units created by the Sleeper) sit on top of a cell of Digitalis, and damaging it damages the creep. So a cannon set to target Digitalis can destroy creeps even under arbitrarily deep creeper—and, critically, even under an AE field. On top of existing Digitalis things get harder, as the cannons will spread out their fire and spend most of their time fighting regen—but that just means you need more of them :). I spent probably five in-game minutes building about 20 cannons at once (with max build speed), sending them off to clear an area of creeps, and immediately starting the next set.

The one criticism I would have—and this applies to the last 10+ maps in this series—is, please give us more than one Bertha. I can understand limiting them so you can't just spam and kill everything with only Berthas—this is in fact essentially my strategy on any map that doesn't limit how many you can build—but could we at least have three? The difference between one and three wouldn't be one of difficulty so much as nuisance, IMO (though it would certainly also allow for faster times)...it's not like "oh God I need three Berthas or I'm going to lose", but rather "ugh, I can hold each of these three positions indefinitely without a Bertha, but I can only push forward with one, and by now I've built enough stuff that the map is lagging really badly and dammit I want to be limited by my multitasking ability rather than having to just sit. and. wait. for the Bertha to charge."
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: GoodMorning on February 18, 2018, 02:53:23 AM
A note on the Sleeper's Singularity:
I'm fairly sure it uses the Creeper under the Forge - no Creeper, no payload, no damage.

I'd like to see a version where it turns into a portal, similar to those in the CW3:A mission "Farewell"; coupled with a gravity well, this would be very effective.

The normal Singularity isn't an instant win for the player, either - it just provides an opening. You don't want the Sleeper to do an air assault and a Singularity at the same place/time.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on February 18, 2018, 08:14:24 AM
I understand that some people depend on Berthas to push, and instead of just making every single one of my maps a "build enough Berthas and you'll annihilate everything", ESPECIALLY for the Sleepers, I limited it to one. Then you can still push, but you can't necessarily command control over the entire map, because that would make it too easy. Granted, I still want to make my maps fun, but I don't want to turn it into a regular Bertha fest like the early maps were.

Besides, you don't have only one Bertha. The AC Bertha is there too, and will be able to help you just as readily as the standard Bertha. It doesn't have a gigantic impact on the Creeper when it hits, but that's not the point. It helps your units grab a steady foothold on the front lines, or on a new bit of land. It reinforces your units rather than annihilate the Creeper in front of them. Don't underestimate how useful AC is.

You want three Berthas, you say? After some thinking, I will say no. HOWEVER, I will give you two. Not without effort mind, you'll have to fight for it. But then once you have the new Bertha, you can keep it for the rest of the campaign. Does that sound reasonable?

Anyway, thanks for the feedback regardless. :)
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: D0m0nik on February 18, 2018, 11:55:41 AM
I think one Bertha is perfect for what you are trying (and succeding) to achieve. I would use two to 'walk' a path through the creep, one is enough to manage creeper density but you still need units to do most of the work. One extra near the end for a final push is a nice compromise though.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: daniels220 on February 18, 2018, 12:19:06 PM
GoodMorning: Interesting. I wonder if I had just landed a Bertha shot there when it fired, or if I placed one there shortly after (so only the first few dozen spores had much payload, and most of those got shot down by beams before they ran out of ammo).

Decagon, re: Berthas (responding in reverse order:)

Two sounds like a good compromise, and I don't mind fighting for it :).

Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?

Yes, I understand about "control over the entire map"...in maps with unlimited Berthas (including Sleeper maps), I generally reach a point where I have about 30% of the map and 4-5 PZ Berthas (I don't bother building them not on PZs, the difference is just so dramatic), and they're able to keep things suppressed so much that the only creeper deeper than 2 or so is immediately around emitters. Taking the other 70% of the map at this point takes a third or less of the time it took to get to that point... On Sleeper maps in particular, keeping creep collectors/reactors and even spore towers to a minimum makes a huge difference. I don't think a second Bertha on this map would really have allowed me to do that, though—the Sleeper is just too strong, and the Forge and weapons are the real threat, not the Creeper itself—so as I started by saying, two seems like a good compromise.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on February 18, 2018, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: daniels220 on February 18, 2018, 12:19:06 PM
Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?
The AC Bertha used to consume 100 AC packets to deal 50 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So, for on-demand AC, you were paying twice as much for what you got out of it.

Now, it consumes 50 AC packets to deal 200 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So the AC spent to AC received is now 1:1, whilst it also deals quadruple the amount of damage to Creeper on impact. Should make it more effective for moderately deep Creeper too, as well as having a much faster charge time.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: cornucanis on February 18, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: Keeper Decagon on February 18, 2018, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: daniels220 on February 18, 2018, 12:19:06 PM
Yes, the AC Bertha is extremely useful, for exactly the reasons you say. I was initially disappointed by the lack of impact on deep Creeper, but that's easily solved by a regular Bertha shot. My main frustration has been how long it takes to charge, and I see you've changed that in the next map—nice! Am I right that after that change, it deposits more AC than it consumed? Like a lot more? Did it already do that, just less dramatically?
The AC Bertha used to consume 100 AC packets to deal 50 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So, for on-demand AC, you were paying twice as much for what you got out of it.

Now, it consumes 50 AC packets to deal 200 damage on impact to existing Creeper before depositing 50 AC. So the AC spent to AC received is now 1:1, whilst it also deals quadruple the amount of damage to Creeper on impact. Should make it more effective for moderately deep Creeper too, as well as having a much faster charge time.

Actually the AC deposit is spread out over many cells. The blast zone has an area of 23 cells (it was supposed to be 25 but I just now realized I made a minor mistake in the burst function) and each cell receives the AC deposit, so it actually substantially amplifies the AC input. Smaller amounts of AC just didn't have much of an appreciable effect for a "super weapon" so I cranked up the balance to make it amplify your input quite a bit. You should be able to easily feed it by soaking up some of the AC it shoots with a sprayer.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: daniels220 on February 20, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
cornucanis: Oh wow...really, 23:1? Or does the amount taper off toward the edges of the blast? Either way, suspicion confirmed...need to remember to use it really aggressively now (i.e. against deep creeper, and generally making sure it's firing 100% of the time).
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: cornucanis on February 21, 2018, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: daniels220 on February 20, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
cornucanis: Oh wow...really, 23:1? Or does the amount taper off toward the edges of the blast? Either way, suspicion confirmed...need to remember to use it really aggressively now (i.e. against deep creeper, and generally making sure it's firing 100% of the time).

It depends on what the mapmaker sets as the ammo and AC deposit values, since both are adjustable. The amount designated will be deposited over 25 cells though (I've sent the fixed script to Decagon so it should correctly hit 25 cells rather than 23 in future maps).
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Johnny Haywire on April 03, 2018, 05:51:29 PM
Been a while since I've had time to play a good, challenging map - happened to stumble upon this series and found this particular boss fight - really enjoyed it!

Was intrigued because several people mentioned it was difficult, and although I suppose it's a bit tough I don't think it's in the top 20. Still pretty tough though, I suppose.

Not sure what all the fuss is about though... a bit of early power management, building about 50 beams & the reactors to power them... and you're good. I do like that the Creeper Berthas aren't completely predictable. Nice work on those, Decagon!

Only complaint I really might have is the lag, and that's my fault for not buying a computer for like 5 years. If you can't afford to pay, you can't afford to play, right? Still playable albeit with a good bit of lag.

Spoiler
If you don't want the long-range creeper shooter to kill your forge, just set a couple sprayers to "always on" near it and it'll flood the area with AC once it overflows the very small space near the forge.
[close]

Thanks for yet another great map, Decagon!  ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Tjgalon on April 04, 2018, 02:35:00 PM
While I am not sure what fires it, a black cloud goes to something and hit, and not one of my unit try to counter attack it. I am not sure what it is, or what to counter. Atm, that keep me from winning the map.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: GoodMorning on April 04, 2018, 07:03:59 PM
If I remember right, that's the Creeper's version of your AC Bertha.

You'll need to get close and Nullify it - there isn't (so far as I know) a way to shoot it down, any more than the Sleeper can counterattack against your AC Bertha.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Tjgalon on April 05, 2018, 12:09:09 AM
fun, just suddenly I was under attack by it, as it removed my forge, and kept aiming at it, when ever I tried to rebuild it, leaving me seriously weaken to any more onslaught, lol
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Johnny Haywire on April 05, 2018, 09:21:51 PM
Yeah, you can target those things with your bertha - takes about 6 or 7 hits I think. Or you can soak the area with AC to protect your forge. In a map where you're fighting heavy creeper, use your guns to deal with that, and lay down a continuous pumping of AC far behind the lines to secure your positions. At least, that's my take on it. I prefer to move slowly & safely than to risk making a mistake & restarting the game.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on April 09, 2018, 04:59:35 PM
The Sleeper Berthas, the ones targeting your Forge, can have its shots blocked by having a shield at the location it's most likely to fire upon, which in this case is the Forge. So if you keep a Shield active beside your Forge, the shots should be nullified pretty readily so long as the shield has sufficient power.
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Johnny Haywire on April 09, 2018, 10:27:02 PM
Weird. I tried using the shields and they didn't seem to work for some reason. I had 4 shields around it fully powered and the creeper still got through.

Timing a bertha strike on the creeper bertha, followed immediately (less than 1 sec) by an AC bertha strike usually kills those things in 1 hit. 2 hits if there's deeper creeper.

I really liked this map too, Decagon. Your maps consistently seem to find that balance of providing a bit of a challenge for experienced players, while still being manageable for beginners. Thanks for your work on these maps (and on PF too)!

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Keeper Decagon on April 10, 2018, 06:44:11 AM
Quote from: Johnny Haywire on April 09, 2018, 10:27:02 PM
Weird. I tried using the shields and they didn't seem to work for some reason. I had 4 shields around it fully powered and the creeper still got through.

Timing a bertha strike on the creeper bertha, followed immediately (less than 1 sec) by an AC bertha strike usually kills those things in 1 hit. 2 hits if there's deeper creeper.

I really liked this map too, Decagon. Your maps consistently seem to find that balance of providing a bit of a challenge for experienced players, while still being manageable for beginners. Thanks for your work on these maps (and on PF too)!

;D ;D ;D

I believe the Bertha shots look for the fields created by the shields. If you have shields overlapping, the fields directly between the two cancel out and thus the shot won't detect there being a shield. Since the shields on the Flagship would be equidistant from the Forge, the cancelling out happens exactly where the Bertha shot would hit. Try using only one shield instead, or maybe stagger a couple of them.

Also, thanks! Sometimes I wonder whether or not I make them a little too difficult (judging based of some reactions to this map in particular), but it's good to know that it's still manageable and fun! :D
Title: Re: Custom Map #5480: Strikefleet Delta 23. By: Decagon
Post by: Johnny Haywire on April 11, 2018, 11:37:13 AM
QuoteIf you have shields overlapping, the fields directly between the two cancel out and thus the shot won't detect there being a shield.

Ah!  :o Thanks for that info... it'll come in handy I'm sure!  ;D