For the last six months I’ve been developing game 3 while using a slightly modified version of the CW1 Creeper algorithm. This was the easiest thing to do in the beginning since it was a top down game just like game 3 is. But, that algorithm used floating point math and also didn’t have support for some nice things like forces…. and AntiCreeper. So, having served its purpose, I set aside the old algorithm and set about crafting a new and updated system. Taking what I learned from CW2, I’ve created a integer based algorithm that supports both forces and AntiCreeper, and made it all work in a top down game.
This week’s shot shows some of that AntiCreeper in action. I don’t yet have a complete AntiCreeper/Ore economy in place so for now I have just equipped Bombers with AC payloads. I build them and send them into the Creeper stronghold, then watch the sizzle as the blue menace yet again gets boiled away.
Looking good Virgil! Keep up the good work!
Have you thought about some sort of nuke that would create a large crater on the map? Also have you thought about giving creeper a corrosive digging effect?
Terrain modifying weapons are something I have considered. They could be devastating to units, though….
I wouldn’t have an issue with that . . . . . unless the enemy has on-map units other than emitters.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?
Well, that does make sense. Powerful weapons have to have some drawbacks.
I think these are talking, not only about player weapons, but weapons at the creeper’s disposal.
Very nice. In the middle/right side of the map, I notice what seem to be little 9’s on the terrain that look somewhat similar to the way fields are displayed in CW2. Could those be the elusive field?
Those are terraforming levels. I’ve tagged that terrain to be terraformed to level 9.
Is the anti-creeper gonna stay aquamarine? I like it a lot better now…. Also, seeing as there will be terraforming, would it be possible to map out auto-terraforming in the map editor?
Maybe…. the color is something I have tweaked a good bit. Unlike CW2, it is important to be able to see through most of the AntiCreeper. But it is also important to be able to see where the AntiCreeper is. This are opposing goals… So, the observation I’ve made is that most terrain’s don’t use blue. This is the main reason that the Creeper is blue… it contrasts best with most terrain. So, it is also true for AntiCreeper that there need to be some element of blue to get a good contrast. Cyan, seems to be a good compromise.
I’d like to see a mobile game for android.
Me too 🙂
Good news is that the Unity engine I have worked on support both iOS and Android. So once game 3 launches, I should be able to start work on some mobile titles (by that I mean iPad or Android tablets).
Looks great! How will the ore/anti-creeper work? Also this is coded in Javascript in Unity3d right? just checking my facts 😛
The AC economy is still being worked out…
Actually, I code everything in C#. Javascript is fine, I just need every performance edge I can get.
What is the difference between C# and javascript. I was looking into learning how to code video games because I can use the drag and rop programs with ease. I found a website called codeacedemy that will teach me for free. i started with javascript. just wondering what the difference is.
The difference: everything and nothing 🙂 It depends on your level of development experience. If you are just learning to program, the syntax differences, the strict typing, etc. will be very confusing to you. On the other hand if you are an experienced developer you’ll see past the syntax differences and view both as just different imperative languages.
If you are just learning to program, pick a language (javascript is fine) and then set about learning the concepts and techniques. In time, the particulars of one imperative language or another will matter less and less.
Well i’ve started with javascript and will learn that and then move on to other languages
Well, glad to see Anti-Creeper back. I’m interested to see what strange things people will find to do either in making a map, or in the middle of playing one, with it.
I notice that there’s only one Center (I forget what they’re called, Command Nodes perhaps?) on this map. Is that just because it’s zoomed in so you can’t see the others? (Or it’s at normal zoom and its just a large map.)
In this mission, I only deployed one CN.
I’m guessing that for now you’re just using ammo packets to fuel the maker?
For now, which is just temporary and for testing, AC is just being automatically loaded onto Bombers for free.
Awesome! I cant wait to see even more. I like the fact the bombers can drop AC. Will there be more nontitan weapons that AC besides the maker and the bomber? Like a normal conversion bomb or AC guns?
Yeah, likely. I’d like to optionally enhance a number of weapons with AC.
In CW2, when I used anti-creep, it was mainly as a way to hold off creep while I set up more sustainable methods. Though some testing, I determined that anti-creep isn’t nearly as effective as energy using structures. Is this the case in CW3? Better yet, do you have any ideas you’ve yet to implement? And would a force bubble holding anti-creep around certain structures be overpowered?
This would be much less true if AC were sustainable. I know you haven’t finalized the AC economy yet, but I’d like to ask that you consider a model that doesn’t eventually just ‘run out’.
Yeah… exactly. I like the idea of AC production that is rate based, not based on a finite amount.
AC will be fairly effective in CW3, and economical as well. Yes, I have about 1000 things I’ve thought of that I’ve not yet implemented 🙂
Forces…. stay tuned.
for the AC pipeline, can you terraform under it to ‘upgrade’ or change it the way you want?
could make it like a hill so the AC gets to an area faster.
also, will there only be one unit under the terraforming tab? or is that the brush sizes
I don’t think there’s been any work done on the AC pipeline yet. Last I heard it was totally undeveloped, and with the progress I see on anti-creeper (and the fact that it can use the main network in the meantime) I doubt the AC network is complete.
The network behaves a lot like radio towers relaying a signal, so it would be interesting to see an AC pipeline that considered the respective elevations of the links, that would actually drop AC when links are destroyed, instead of ‘losing’ the packet of AC – all the things you’d expect of transmitting matter through a pipe, rather than over the airwaves, as the network resembles.
Correct… little work has been done (at least that has worked out). For one, a separate pipeline system turns out to be a real chore to build and manage. It sort of screams for ‘use the existing network’. On the other hand, it is cool to have ‘packages’ of AC that get delivered differently than just regular packets. I’ve got a couple more fundamental approaches to try, then I’ll blog all about it.
Please do – I’m eager to hear more about how this turns out being implemented.
What if the AC pipeline ‘added on’ to your existing network? For instance, instead of having to build a separate network, instead, having structures that connect to that network, which the AC has to be transmitted to in sequence?
For instance,what if you had to transmit it from an ore vein to a refinery, then from a refinery to a storage, then requiring a single dedicated AC-link from the network to the weapon that uses it?
If you used some artificial means to ensure that these locations were spread out a bit (fixed locations for ore mines and/or refineries?) you would have a sub-net within your network that the AC would have to traverse, without actually being separate from the main network.
Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but blasters in CW2 use slightly less then .2 energy per shot. I left one blaster to tackle a subcell of (2^32)-1 creeper (it took about ten hours, thank you for asking) and the energy left had two digits following the decimal, e. g. 5.33 and 4.76. This also explains why, though it displays space for 1 more, blasters with 7/8 ammo can’t take anymore packets. Is there any way this can be fixed? I’m sorry if I’m explaining poorly; ask me and I’ll try to clarify.
Over such a long haul, there was likely floating point drift. In fact, I compensate for this in a few cases. That said, CW1 and CW2 mechanics are pretty much set at this point. I will be mindful of this in game 3, though.
Virgil do there will be unit that repairs damaged structures? Like some sort of Repair Drone that flys up to selected building and repairs in while in mid-air. Simmiliar to drones and bombers it will have take-off pod.
There will be repairable units… at least for those that can take damage and not blow up really quickly.
Earlier you said that all energy on a network was shared equally between CN’s, and storage pods.
Does this mean that storage pods actually manufacture packets from energy, like a command node does?
You have mentioned that the loss of all CN’s wasn’t necessarily the end of the game. With reactors and storage pods on the screen, does this mean that CN’s aren’t necessary at all? Do they provide any benefit over a storage node, other than carrying their own reactor?
Storage pods don’t create packets, only CN’s can do that. Storage pods are best thought of as ideal capacitors. They store up electrical potential and can discharge it ‘instantly’.
So imagine you have a collector network that produces 30 units of energy per second. That will allow you to make 30 packets per second at a CN. If you are making less than 30 packets per second, there will be some excess energy. This excess energy gets stored in the internal storage pod of a CN (up to 10 units) and also in each external storage pod that you build (currently up to 30 units per pod). So imagine you have 10 storage pods and they all get charged up over time.
That would mean you have 300 units of energy stored in the storage pods, plus 10 stored in the CN, plus 30 being produced by your network every second (or 1 per frame). Say you pause the game and then build 311 things. When you un-pause the game 311 packets will get dispatched since you have 310 stored energy and are making 1 per frame.
Command Nodes are the only thing (currently) that can make packets. So without a CN on a map, you are limited to existing units with existing ammo. Not very sustainable. But the ‘game’ continues and you can come back later with another CN.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh. When you were talking about on-the-map storage, I think everybody (I did at least) understood this to mean that packets would be sent to the storages (Like ammo for guns,) and then dispatched from the storage later.
So this means that a network disconnected from a CN has absolutely no additional longevity if you place storage pods there?
I have a question based on the visuals. First, it looks like you updated the look of the mortars? They’re looking more techo-industrial now.
Second, the eastern ridge looks like the entire ridge was ‘sheared’ near the bottom, like the landscape doesn’t line up properly. Are there new terrain-modifying effects in play that you’ve been experimenting with, or is this an artifact of the fractal terrain generation?
Yes, thanks again to MadMag for the unit graphics. There are more yet to come…
Yes, I have new terrain techniques in place. One of them will create ridges on maps.
Why integer instead of floating point? Speed?
If so, thanks! My computer’s not the fastest, so I appreciate any performance tuning you can afford the time to do!
Speed and precision… that’s what the integers are about.
Will there be conversion bombs or reasonable facsimile?
Probably… maybe… just nothing too powerful.
Will creeper density play a roll in CW3 or is the height of the creeper the big concern as with CW1?
They are sort of the same thing… at least in the mathematical models that the Creeper uses. In other words, imagine there was a terrain that was ‘infinitely’ high. As in no amount of Creeper could over flow it. Now imagine terrain of that type was completely surrounding an emitter. The Creeper will get higher and higher… or you might think of it as denser and denser. If someone terraforms away one of the surrounding wall cells… a massive flood would ensure. Kinda like in CW2….
nice game you have created so far 🙂
will some units like blasters not be able to shoot over elevationthat is higher than itself like in CW1?
if so, will mortars be able to ‘clear’ a wall of elevation(say you terraformed a strait line to 10)if terrain on the other side is eaqual to or less than the amount of elevation the mortar is at.
Correct. Pulse Cannons can’t shoot at higher terrain but Mortars can fire over terrain. This makes terraforming the front line something you need to think about if you are holding back Creeper with Pulse Cannons.
Any chance we’ll see landmines such as those that can be built into a CW1 map? Maybe something we can build, this time?
AC landmines would make things . . . . . . interesting.
Yeah, maybe so. I could maybe see a landmine laying flying unit….
I just had an idea. Multi-player. one person gets 3 nodes he can place and use. the other can use 3 nodes to place and use. When linked, they give each other all their stuff (Energy/ore/other/upgrades)
Intresting the main Idea for multiplayer was that one person would control the creeper (more code to be written for that) and the other would control the normal human stuff and see who could win. Both ideas of play would be intresting…
In the past, there has been no active agency involved in controlling the creeper. Even forces have been constant and/or consistantly repeating. What would the player ever control?
So.. Does that mean the player will be able to choose how many they deploy before starting? Or that you just decided to design this particular map that way?
If you have more than 1, and the map supports it, yes you can choose how many you deploy.
What will be interesting to see is how things like the (i forgot what it was called) (worked when it was pushing creeper away from your units} will work with top down mechanics. Any possibility for something like this in the third game?
Also, any plans for some truly mobile units?
Yes, there will be things that use fields (like repulsors in CW2).
Not sure what you mean by truly mobile units, but there are units that can relocate, fire while flying, etc.
Fire while flying! Great!
Virgilw can you make one more expansion for cw1??? My pc dont supports unity so i will not be able to play cw3 , so can yu make expansion for cw1?
None planned at this time. My focus is on making game 3 super awesome. And… you won’t have the same PC for the rest of your life (even though it may feel like it right now). 🙂
this dude is wright Virgilw! come on make multiplayer, i saw yu sayd that multiplayer in realtime strategy is over horizont but look even warcraft 1 that was made in 1998 has multiplayer! please!
It’s not a technology issue… it’s a development time and resource issue…. at least the kind of multiplayer you are talking about (real time, synchronous, simultaneous play).
I was thinking it would be by a LAN network. That would fix a lot of lag in it, and also make it so you wouldn’t need a chat system. Just yell to the other player.
Have fun playing with all your friends who don’t live next door!
I wouldn’t mind, it would mean that I can play with my dad or any friends who come over. For starcraft 2 my brother bring friends over to play. So I figure that using a LAN network wouldn’t be that bad, as it’s hard to coordinate a game over distance, as you need a phone.
‘development issue’ doesn’t mean the huge, immense challenges in reducing lag. That’s just optimization, challenging at times, but not insurmountable.
Development issues means that programming two games to work together as a client and a server is move challenging than getting a single game to interact with a single player, and requires a whole new level of programming.
I believe the issue here is the code that needs to be written, not the lack of necessary technology or the challenges in reducing lag speed.
PS – I’d like to add that 99% of the challenges involved in coordinating games across the world also apply to games across the room. Though lag may be less, they still need to be perfectly aligned and synchronized, which means the same measures need to be taken.
Making a connection to china is just as easy as making a connection to the guy next door – the internet is only a big version of your home network, and lag can be solved with a little optimizing. It’s the coding to make two games agree on who’s in charge, agree on what’s actually happening at any moment, and the development of the game mechanics that allow two players to operate on one map as separate entities in control of separate assets. (Whether or not those assets can be joined.)
Hum. That was supposed to be a response to #65. Oops.
Yes, agreed on Multiplayer. In general multiplayer takes a fair amount of time to implement for a game like CW because of the state semantics, not because of networking technologies, etc. In particular there is too much state to send around to all players all of the time. So, there has to be an exact simulation run on all players and everybody has to play at the speed of the slowest connected player. It’s a lock step kind of model where only commands are sent around to players. It isn’t rocket science, it’s just a tedious thing that requires lots of mind share and lots of testing. Now I like a challenge, that’s why I don’t rule it out. But, I also have to keep my eye on the ball and make a game that focuses on the features that 95%+ of people will use.
Or chat. Durrrrrrr.
Whell it looks like that i will have to keep playing evermore…LOL. But exactly you are wright….i will get new pc soon and i WILL BUY CREEPER WORLD! EVEN IF IT WILL COST 1 BILLION DOLLARS!! I WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe the cost is gonna be around 10-15 dollars so save your billion for that private Island
psst, virgilw, make it a billion dollars to start off and keep it a billion dollars for a day or 2. then give them their money back and make it 10 dollars.
if i was virgilw, i would put the game up for that much just so YOU can buy it and retire 🙂
Minus of creeper world 1 was that when you start off a mission you already get deficit up to 16-20 by building COLLECTORS. Is it possible like when you click Command Node and there is like button ” Activate support mode ” or something and about 5 reactors will show up. Just it was realy annoying,even on first mission ” Hope ” you got deficit by building ONE single collector.
In game 3 you will have an option of deploying some pre-filled storage pods (if you have any on hand). That, along with some other things, will allow you to kick start some missions more quickly.
STORAGE PODS?? Oh wait,i think i get it now-Instead of giving more space for energy it will now collect energy and give it when you are having deficit? Wow its just like with crystals in cw2.
That’s pretty much exactly what CW1’s pods did. They increased your storage, and gave it back when you exceeded the default 20 storage you started with.
There is no effective difference between CW1 and CW3 storage except that CW3 storage only supplies to the individual command nodes that the storages have a network link to.
how many levels do you plan to create for cw3?
Around a billion or so 🙂 Some smaller number will be hand crafted worlds that I make (20 or so). The story worlds will be stuck around in a larger space filled with other worlds. There will also be a way to select a world based on features you like and of course a space filled with custom worlds that the community makes.
will there be the randomly generated world optionlike in CW2?
if there will be, it needs a script to make it so it isnt completely random.
I dont want every mission to have random squares of higher or lower elevation EVERYWHERE.
basicly,I want to be able to build before terraforming.
In CW2 there are missions that are unbeatable 🙂
The random worlds aren’t just ‘static’. They have structure…
There aren’t any CW2 game missions that can’t be beaten. Maybe community maps, if they’re badly made, and maybe random maps, but not campaign missions.
I’m pretty confident Virgil won’t be including game maps in the campaign that can’t be beaten. As for the rest . . . random is random, and nothing can prevent bad design in community maps.
Agreed,I spent year in tryng to complete level 13. I did it now but it was realy hard to get that last capsule.
Virgilw are you returning good old aerial creeper spores? If you do it would be cool if one of them hits your strafer and it falls into the blue ocean of death……..
There will likely be something roughly similar to the spores.
Virgilw how about multiple bosses? like fighting multiple Loki races and unlocking new units by defeating them. Its just..boring by killing only one boss in the whole game.
I can’t find a like button!?!
More things to shoot at…. yes.
Virgil, will creeper be able to destroy the walls? I mean ,you sayd something about pointless castles,so its intresting can theese ‘ castles ‘ get destroyed by creeper?
The castles I build are made out of terrain… so the Creeper can’t destroy them. But it can eventually scale the walls.
terrain is dirt…. creeper cant hurt dirt…… upgrade blasters with dirt armor…… epic win ^^ (lol just kidding man, love where this is going, and the way you make it sound, it will be the best game of teh year. i know i will vote for as long as i can keep coming up with random emails xD )
you COULD work with this,
if terraforming is to much at a certain moment, you can add breakable walls for much less.
Virgilw you know what would be realy good? Missiles. I have 2 options for you- 1)Orbital missiles,you sayd that command nodes are being droped from spaceship in orbit,so they could like send a missile in your selected area-you click a button ‘ Misiles away ‘ and they fall into your selected location.
2)Misile silo- its like a turret with 4 holes in it,each hole contains a rocket.You select a location and all 4 misiles fly away to selected location. I would prefer first one but its your call.
Pretty sure the titan artillery is much like that – you select a location, and it drops big booms there.
Virgilw,Can there be like some sort of C4 that you place in one straight line,detonate it and it makes very deep hole.Then you just place few mortars to take care of the creeper that falled in to it,and thats pretty much it,like some sort of ambush system.
Weapons that deform the terrain are a possibility… though I have certain reservations about them.
I would personally prefer terrain-deforming weapons to be an enemy weapon, rather than one of your own. Something to prevent terraforming from becoming all-powerful over time.
Agreed, teraforming seems really shiney (awesome) but a bit overpowered unless the enemy can destroy your work, bombs and the like (or a giant sea monster!!) lol
First off, great work with this. I’m very eager to see what comes next, both in terms of story and gameplay. Thanks.
Second, you keep saying, “If you have it” or “If they’re available” when referring to command nodes and later about storage pods. Does that mean there will be a greater level of continuity between levels? Will there be carryover from previous levels?
Yep, that’s the idea. You can journey from world to world and carry with you different things (at least in the story part of space).
before this, it was a 6/5, now, 11/5. This game shall be awesome!
Virgilw,the structure bar ir pretty much ” empty. ” I think you should return speed for l arge network becouse maps are 10 times biger now and i cant imagine it without speed. But its not going to be red triangle? wright?….wright? Anyways i have an idea-its a small device ( unit design goes to you or MadMag) you can put it on collector,and as soon packet passes trought it it will start move faster. The thing is to put it this speed device near the start of yor network system,first collector connected to Command node.
I’ll take this as another chance to make a pitch for storage being packet storage instead of energy storage, stocking a storage similar to ammo, and then dispatching stored packets from the storage.
Being able to place local packets closer to their destination via local storages would make speed upgrades largely obsolete, add intricacy to the network system without overly complicating it, and make it possible to add some minimal longevity to a network, even when it’s disconnected from a command node for a brief period.
I’m considering this… one option is as an orbitally deployed unit. In other words, if you have one (or more) you can drop them down from orbit. In this case, it would be a one use unit. It might have 100 or so packets crammed inside and when they are all gone, it goes poof and self destructs. In this model they are temporary enhancers to a remote region. They are also something you covet.
Another model is to make them regular units that can be built and that can move. You build one, it charges up. Then you can flip it to discharge and it becomes a packet source. This sounds a little more interesting to me, since I don’t immediately know what the best strategy for use is… but I can think of several I’d like to try.
Note that this would no replace regular old storage pods, it would be in addition to energy storage.
I like the charge model – this is something I’ve been pining for since CW1. I think the best use for them would be as a supply for isolated units in a large network, where guns are so distant that their supply runs out before the first packet arrives. With larger map sizes, this is going to be an issue much more often.
Another use might be to allow parts of a network, where a CN can’t be situated, to be operated without a connection to a CN.
You could also upragade this speed device so packets that pass trought it move way faster then first time.
I very much like how your new game is progressing.
I suppose that you hate when a newbie comes up with an idea, but here it goes: multiple creeper factions? Example – a map that has two different emitters, each of which produces it’s own creeper that is “rival” with the other… – creeper that destroys creeper – similar to your anti-creeper. It may be interesting for the storyline somehow?
I like it. Nice idea.
Have you given any thought to the idea of making mods possible for CW3?
In any indie game, mod support seems to be something that is either incredibly popular, or a footnote, a flop. The largest factor seems to be when it’s implemented, in my opinion. Games that release with mod support have a much better community working on the concepts than those who don’t.
I suspect the games retain more players from the initial blooming of the community, and therefore also maintain a larger modding community, as opposed to games that implement it later, so that only the die-hard fans tie into the modding community.
The short story is, if it’s going to be done, it should be complete upon release.
I do want the game to be as open as possible. So for sure on custom worlds, and the things that will be expected. Unit graphics are also a possibility. This game doesn’t use full 3d models so it is fairly easy for someone to draw their own units and use them in the game. Unit constants and things are less likely, but possible.
Textures on the terrain is pretty simple to make and can make a map very nice and different from the default textures.
Virgil when is the next update coming up? Also,any chance next update beeing a video?
A video won’t be much longer. I just need another few sprints, then it will be time to put my director’s hat on again…
You Virgil sayd something about new sneaky enemies-maybe some sort of Terrain Monsters that pop out of terrain,you would also have a radar that shows you underground and location of theese rock monsters.
I like the idea (in general) of something that will show underground things. I’ll have to think about that.
Suggestion: make it possible in the editor to lock a command node already on the map which will place a cw1 style lock on everything connected to it, until it gets linked to a player placed node. This would allow, for example, something akin to the cities in the “old foes” custom maps to produce some packets and keep firing weapons (though of course you would need to hook up to them or they will die eventually.) Just a thought, I know almost nil about programming and wouldn’t be surprised if I’m asking for the impossible here.
Interesting…..
What about breakaway ground? Imagine soft ground where creeper flows over and underneath it could be a huge hole/ditch… so just as the going looks like it’s getting tough the ground breaks away and the creeper floods into that…. like in CW2
Or a HIGH wall of land and a piece of it is breakaway and you have to hold it back before a piece of the wall is worn down, similar to the green block walls in CW1
Definitely ‘very high’ ground. And also likely will add decayable ground.
you should use perlin noise for the chronom missions